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Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#144751: Oct 18th 2016 at 7:31:41 AM

[up][up]You are correct. Looks like the polls are split, with a narrow edge to the challenger. This could be one race that Donald screws for his party.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#144752: Oct 18th 2016 at 7:53:04 AM

Paul Ryan condemns a "Democratic dystopia" where "[t]here’s a kind of a gloom and greyness to things. [...] the driving force is the state."

He thinks that Democrats want to make government the dominating force in people's lives and stamp out all originality and creativity. As noted, he's an Ayn Rand devotee.

edited 18th Oct '16 7:53:21 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#144753: Oct 18th 2016 at 8:02:58 AM

What to expect from a person whose name seems to be a mix and an acronym of Ayn Rand and Ron Paul if not their unholy breed?

[down][down]ThatIsTheJoke.jpg

edited 18th Oct '16 8:19:09 AM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#144755: Oct 18th 2016 at 8:07:17 AM

[up][up] I'm pretty sure the unholy breed is Rand Paul.

Oh God! Natural light!
nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#144756: Oct 18th 2016 at 8:08:22 AM

[up][up][up][up]Does Paul Ryan identify proudly as Paul Ryan, or as a Republican first?

edited 18th Oct '16 8:08:37 AM by nervmeister

thatguythere47 Since: Jul, 2010
#144757: Oct 18th 2016 at 8:08:56 AM

I really want to read atlas shrugged in full so I can maybe empathize with them but it's soooo bad. I don't know how you can actually sit down and read the whole thing and then go "yes, this is a world view I can ascribe to"

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#144758: Oct 18th 2016 at 8:10:35 AM

Ayn Rand is kind of like that in general. She really wasn't a very good author and her stuff totally fails to grab anyone who doesn't already buy into her philosophy on some level. Instead of properly building a world around her philosophy, she just kind of crams it into the "real world" warping it to fit, and adding weird logical problems that mean the central conceit doesn't actually make sense.

edited 18th Oct '16 8:20:02 AM by Zendervai

Tangent128 from Virginia Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#144760: Oct 18th 2016 at 8:28:29 AM

[up][up][up]Try The Fountainhead - it's a bit stronger on being a novel and a bit less heavy handed on the philosophy essays.

I will say of Atlas Shrugged that it is a strong book for challenging a person's default beliefs. Rand was pretty bad at continuing to challenge her own assumptions after she arrived at her conclusions and her Aristotelian logic allows for no middle ground but you may also see that there's a pretty huge disconnect between what she wrote and what a lot of her supporters adhere to.

And also that when you're 16 and unafraid of thousand page novels it can kinda blow your mind.

edited 18th Oct '16 8:29:57 AM by Elle

NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#144761: Oct 18th 2016 at 8:29:49 AM

[up][up]Notice how all of this happening once Trump was looking it he was actually gonna win

BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#144762: Oct 18th 2016 at 8:30:22 AM

When confronted with extreme opinions, extremists become more centrist

Not directly related to US politics, but it gives an example of something that may be usable to help the Trump supporters chill.

The authors defined paradoxical thinking as an attempt to change attitudes by exposing subjects to beliefs similar to their own, but much more extreme. The idea is that exposure to more extreme attitudes would cause people to step back, effectively moderating their attitudes. This approach was based on the classic debating technique of reduction ad absurdum, in which debaters carry their opponent’s arguments to their most absurd and extreme conclusions in order to undermine them.

(A common example of this type of argument was made by people opposed to gay marriage: “if you let two men marry each other, before you know it, people will be marrying their dogs.”)

The authors set up a large-scale intervention aimed at an entire Israeli city. They delivered their paradoxical thinking intervention (which they named “The Conflict”) to residents of this city using Internet advertisements, including online banners and You Tube ads. The Internet campaign was six weeks long and was accompanied by physical billboards, which were placed in 20 central locations throughout the city.

Slogans used for “The Conflict” intervention campaign included pro-conflict messages, such as “Without it, we would not have united against a common enemy… For unity we probably need the conflict,” and “Without it, we wouldn’t have had heroes… We probably need the conflict." In addition to this intervention, the researchers also did eighteen days of field work, during which they distributed T-shirts, balloons, and brochures to residents.

After this extensive intervention, the authors determined if conflict-supporting attitudes were affected. They found that paradoxical thinking led participants to feel less attached to conflict-focused attitudes after controlling for the participants’ baseline political orientation or level of religiosity. Controlling for these two covariates was an important step in their analysis because of their influence on attitudes, as noted above.

Anyone know of possible arguments to use on the Trump supporters? Some of them (Pence) are people who think that women should be punished for having a miscarriage for fuck's sake!

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#144763: Oct 18th 2016 at 8:34:47 AM

I don't think it would work very well. The miscarriage thing, for example, is already right at the extreme.

Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#144764: Oct 18th 2016 at 8:36:27 AM

I don't think it's really possible to get crazier. At least, without them thinking that said crazy idea is a great one after all...

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
megarockman from The Sixth Borough (Experienced Trainee)
#144765: Oct 18th 2016 at 8:37:29 AM

It would probably depend on which Trump supporters, because I think such a strategy is dependent on there being a point where even the extremist won't cross. it might be a viable approach for the low-income voters in rural areas who otherwise feel left behind economically (going back to a previous discussion on who exactly is supporting Trump).

edited 18th Oct '16 8:39:26 AM by megarockman

The damned queen and the relentless knight.
Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#144766: Oct 18th 2016 at 8:40:53 AM

Sounds like it's basically the Strawman argument. But it only works if you can make a strawman scarier than reality.

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#144767: Oct 18th 2016 at 8:42:21 AM

20% of Trump supporters opposes the Emancipation Proclamation.

They're too far gone to moderate.

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#144768: Oct 18th 2016 at 8:44:04 AM

Yeah. The problem is that Trump supporters, unlike the Israeli right wing targeted by the study, are all the way into The Tyson Zone. There is no crazy that they will not stoop to.

Likudniks are generally sane. Their positions are morally abhorrent, and sometimes defended with frivolous logical claims, but sane. So really crazy bullshit is likely to turn a lot of them off.

@megarockman: If there were any Trumpites who could be scared off by a strawman, the real Trump would have scared them off.

edited 18th Oct '16 8:44:27 AM by Ramidel

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#144769: Oct 18th 2016 at 8:44:13 AM

[up][up]Where did you get that from? And 20% (messed up as it is) isn't a majority.

Edit: Not that I have much hope true die harder Trump supporters will moderate, but still.

edited 18th Oct '16 8:45:41 AM by LSBK

thatguythere47 Since: Jul, 2010
#144770: Oct 18th 2016 at 9:05:10 AM

pretty sure that was a control question in a survey which would align with the rule of thumb that roughly 20% taking surveys are trolling.

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#144771: Oct 18th 2016 at 9:11:37 AM

Well, it's less than the proportion of Republicans who think the Earth was created ~6,000 years ago.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#144772: Oct 18th 2016 at 9:14:24 AM

It could be they just don't know what the emancipation proclamation is, or they thought the pollsters were talking about a different emancipation proclamation.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#144773: Oct 18th 2016 at 9:15:54 AM

[up] That was the entire basis of the Man Show bit I referred to a while back about ending Womens' Suffrage.

BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#144774: Oct 18th 2016 at 9:24:10 AM

What Our Sons Are Learning From Donald Trump from the NY Times; quoted in full due to 10 article a month limit.

Throughout his campaign, Donald J. Trump has displayed a particular type of hyper masculinity — the man who is proud not to apologize and to have never changed a diaper; who views “loser” as the ultimate insult; who bonds with other men by objectifying women.

It’s especially striking because today’s schools and workplaces try to value something different: empathy, impulse control and collaboration. For three decades, jobs that require these social skills have grown much more than others, researchers have found. They say one reason that boys are more likely than girls to get in trouble in school and are less likely to graduate is that a narrow definition of masculinity can stunt their ability to develop these skills.

If there is a silver lining to Mr. Trump’s views on manliness, it’s that it has prompted a national discussion about the “boys will be boys” excuse for things like bullying, boasting or appraising women in crassly sexual terms. That has offered an opportunity for parents and teachers to make clear what behavior is unacceptable. Michelle Obama, in an emotional speech on Thursday, asked what message Mr. Trump’s words and behavior sent not just to girls, but also to men and boys.

“Like us, these men are worried about the impact this election is having on our boys who are looking for role models of what it means to be a man,” she said.

Even at my son’s preschool, the children’s interest in Mr. Trump led to a circle-time discussion about bullying.

There is reason for concern about the men whom boys might look up to, because boys seem to be particularly sensitive — even more than girls — to social influences and role models, a variety of research has found.

Role models, whether parents or public figures, can help boys overcome disruptive behavior. And boys are much more responsive to this kind of attention and modeling than girls are, according to a study by Marianne Bertrand of the University of Chicago and Jessica Pan of the National University of Singapore.

By calling it “locker room talk,” Mr. Trump implied that all men act this way. But the “boys will be boys” excuse, for any kind of behavior, is demeaning to boys, said Michael Kimmel, a sociologist and executive director of the Center for the Study of Men and Masculinities at Stony Brook University.

“I think we do ourselves a great disservice when we just shrug our shoulders in resignation and say, ‘Boys will be boys,’” he said. “We only say that when boys do bad things. That’s male bashing.”

Boys are already raised with two conflicting definitions of masculinity, Mr. Kimmel said. “If you were to ask men, Republican or Democrat or anywhere in between, what does it mean to be a good man, they’ll all tell you pretty much the same thing: honor, integrity, responsibility,” he said. “But ask what it means to be a real man, and we’re talking about never showing your feelings, never being weak, playing through pain, winning at all costs, getting rich, getting laid.”

By excusing bad behavior as a boy thing, boys get the message that they can’t improve themselves.

Many educators assume that boys are hard-wired in certain ways: to be aggressive, active, competitive, impulsive and stoic. The risk of that approach is that boys are raised to think they can’t be anything else. That constrains boys, and particularly harms those who don’t fit the mold — as much as it does girls who want to be active and competitive too, said David S. Cohen, a law professor studying gender and law at Drexel University.

“We have evidence that if you shift the discourse around boys and give them the cultural support they need to solve problems with strategies other than aggression and to express their feelings without being mocked, they respond just like any human being,” said Juliet A. Williams, professor of gender studies at the University of California, Los Angeles, who wrote a paper titled “Girls Can Be Anything … But Boys Will Be Boys.”

Boys can quickly learn to recognize and call out bullying, boastfulness and inappropriate sexual language, says Michael G. Thompson, a psychologist at Belmont Hill School, a boys’ school near Boston, who was a co-author of “Raising Cain: Protecting the Emotional Life of Boys.” That’s why Mr. Trump’s behavior can be confusing for some of them, he said: “They think, ‘He’s doing stuff that if I tried in school, I’d get in trouble for.’”

Preschoolers are interested in Trump?! Holy shit. Talk of him is really trickling down, so to speak, to younger and younger kids.

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#144775: Oct 18th 2016 at 9:26:47 AM

That Paradoxical thinking thing is likely viable as a thing against Trump supporters, and better as one against Republicans in general. Because this election has made people who don't like Trump re-think the GOP.


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