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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#143076: Oct 10th 2016 at 2:02:27 PM

Even before that, TTIP was looking unlikely (For that matter, TTIP was one of the factors that led to Brexit).

edited 10th Oct '16 2:04:47 PM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#143077: Oct 10th 2016 at 2:28:03 PM

Is anyone else having threads randomly drop from their watch list? It's happening to this thread on mine, and it's really annoying. I don't think I'm unfollowing the thread at random times after posting on it.

edited 10th Oct '16 2:28:41 PM by BearyScary

Do not obey in advance.
Artificius from about a foot and a half away from a monitor. Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Norwegian Wood
#143078: Oct 10th 2016 at 2:31:33 PM

I've had that happen on my tablet, in those cases it was probably my finger dragging over the watch button.

"I have no fear, for fear is the little death that kills me over and over. Without fear, I die but once."
Fighteer MOD Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#143080: Oct 10th 2016 at 2:39:39 PM

Did Hillary really destroy the lives of women who said that Bill abused them?

I keep trying to argue with people that what Trump said about women was wrong, and they just don't get it.

edited 10th Oct '16 2:43:22 PM by BearyScary

Do not obey in advance.
Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#143081: Oct 10th 2016 at 2:42:46 PM

I read a NY Times article that depicted her as very Claire Underwood-ish on the matter. I tend to trust the NYT, and I think it would be pretty much in character for her - especially 20 or 25 years ago when she was in Bill's shadow. It's not something that would surprise me coming from a professionnal politician, to be honest.

edited 10th Oct '16 2:43:00 PM by Julep

Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#143082: Oct 10th 2016 at 2:46:03 PM

People still won't drop the idea that Hilary has some sort of magical super disease that makes her ineligible for public office.

And conveniently ignore FDR's counter example.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#143083: Oct 10th 2016 at 2:48:35 PM

It's understandable that she wouldn't have wanted to believe what was alleged about her husband.

PolitiFact actually did an article about this. Their finding, essentially, was that none of the claims could be substatiated. They're all hearsay, people quoting what others have said they remember Clinton saying.

As stated above, it's not hard to believe that Clinton would have attacked those she would (presumably) have perceived as spreading very offensive lies about her husband; but if she did, it is not on record in reliable sources.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#143084: Oct 10th 2016 at 2:49:39 PM

Could you link this article?

What would be a reliable account here?

edited 10th Oct '16 2:49:54 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#143085: Oct 10th 2016 at 3:00:08 PM

Unfortunately there's just too much he said, she said for anyone who was not involved or very intimate with the people who were for an outside source to offer a definitive conclusion. The one I linked a page back is reasonable but equally inconclusive.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#143086: Oct 10th 2016 at 3:01:20 PM

So some blogger made a pretty interesting rant on why Trump made the entire national security establishment shit themselves.

To get to the core of it (I cut a lot of stuff before, in the middle, and after):

Maybe you heard that Trump said maybe we shouldn't defend NATO countries if Russia invades. And you interpreted that as Trump expressing fed-up-ness with American military spending and our trying to defend everything in the world without getting much in return. Somebody in the newspapers seemed to be making a big deal out of it, just like they make a big deal out of Clinton emails. Clutching at their pearls and fainting about how terribly important it is that America honor its commitments to other countries, or something.

No.

The people in the national security bureaucracy—hell, even *me*, even though I'm not a national security bureaucrat and have only read a handful of military history books—heard that and thought:

"HOLY SHIT."

Members of the Washington DC establishment who privately laugh about sexual assault and insider trading, heard that and thought: "YOU DON'T DO THAT."

My reading of history books is admittedly biased by having read about historically interesting cases. This does tend to be cases where things went very right, or more usually, very wrong. American revolution, French revolution, World War I, World War II.

Perhaps there are dozens of other cases where a country elected an impulsive, chaotic, populist leader and nothing whatsoever went wrong.

But when I think of Trump, I think of Hitler, and not in the generic sense of “Hitler” meaning “bad”. I think of the British diplomats who sent Hitler a sternly worded note on the eve of Hitler’s invasion of Poland, warning that Britain *would* defend Poland even though they hadn’t defended Czechoslovakia. According to “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich”, Hitler read the note himself instead of having his diplomatic corps explain it to him, and interpreted the standard diplomatic politesse as conciliatory and a go-ahead to invade Poland.

If I were to try summarize very briefly why Trump's remarks on NATO crossed a HOLY SHIT line, it'd be along the lines of: "If you read the history books, you realize that it is REALLY REALLY bad to have any ambiguity about which minor powers the major powers will defend; that is how World War I *and* World War II both started."

And: "In the wake of the second World War that started from that kind of ambiguity, the senior leaders in both the East and the West, enemies though they may have been, decided to learn the lesson and henceforth be more clear about which countries they'd defend. Not only did Trump blow through that, he did so in a way that indicates he has no idea of how World War I started and why this is one of the things you absolutely don't do. He doesn't listen to advisors. He doesn't have advisors! God knows what other guardrails he's going to blow through!"

edited 10th Oct '16 3:01:53 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#143087: Oct 10th 2016 at 3:02:37 PM

Could you link this article?

Here's one.

I'm not sure if that's the one I saw earlier, though - if it is it's been updated/rewritten.

What would be a reliable account here?

That's a difficult question. If the accusation is that Hillary somehow attacked these people, if it's something she did face to face it's basically impossible to prove it now. If she had her legal team harrass them, that could be more easy to prove. If she attacked them in the media, as the Trump campaign claims, that should be very easy to prove. So far, everything I've seen indicates Clinton quotes being taken out of context to make it look like she's calling the women names when it's either someone else than Hillary Clinton speaking, or Clinton said the thing but about someone else.

edited 10th Oct '16 3:05:42 PM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#143088: Oct 10th 2016 at 3:02:37 PM

Could you link this article?

Here's one.

I'm not sure if that's the one I saw earlier, though - if it is it's been updated/rewritten.

What would be a reliable account here?

That's a difficult question. If the accusation is that Hillary somehow attacked these people, if it's something she did face to face it's basically impossible to prove it now. If she had her legal team harrass them, that could be more easy to prove. If she attacked them in the media, as the Trump campaign claims, that should be very easy to prove. So far, everything I've seen indicates Clinton quotes being taken out of context to make it look like she's calling the women names when it's either someone else than Hillary Clinton speaking, or Clinton said the thing but about someone else.

edited 10th Oct '16 3:05:42 PM by BestOf

BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#143089: Oct 10th 2016 at 3:06:55 PM

What the hell? I edited my post, and the one below was edited, as well? I'm sure I didn't have two edit windows open...

(For the record, Mods can edit posts but as you can see I edited mine - and I didn't do it twice, so this must be bug.)

I hope you can restore your post, Clarste. Hopefully you remember what was in it.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#143090: Oct 10th 2016 at 3:07:38 PM

It seems cruelly ironic. Innocent until proven guilty usually isn't treated as a thing in people's mind in most cases, but then when it comes to rape and sexual assault, it goes into overdrive to often being harmfully dismissive of the potential victim.

Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#143091: Oct 10th 2016 at 3:07:40 PM

Through, uh, forum wizardry my post seems to have been swallowed by BestOf's edit..

I can't edit it, because it gives me a snide message about me being a miscreant who tries to edit other people's posts.

My post was about how rape/sexual assault almost always comes down to "he said, she said" because the most important element, consent, is something that exists entirely inside people's heads and cannot be proven after the fact. But if we want to respect the victims at all, we can't dismiss their claims just because of that.

edited 10th Oct '16 3:17:08 PM by Clarste

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#143092: Oct 10th 2016 at 3:09:18 PM

[up]I was responding to it. It was something about all sexual abuse cases being he said, she said and that being part of the whole reason for the push to "believe the victim" to be the first response in these cats.

The reply:

Right, and at the time, frankly, Hillary did not do that. The degree to which she did not do that (claims of private investigators to dig up all the crap on the other women to paint the worst possible picture of them, for example) is part of the debate, however.

edited 10th Oct '16 3:11:45 PM by Elle

Xopher001 Since: Jul, 2012
#143093: Oct 10th 2016 at 3:09:32 PM

Looks like Wikileaks has leaked more emails from the Clinton campaign. I don't see what's so damning about them TBH- it's just a bunch of scheduling, spam, etc. there was one interesting bit about the Koch's spying on the Democrat party.

edited 10th Oct '16 3:11:51 PM by Xopher001

BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#143094: Oct 10th 2016 at 3:10:00 PM

Oh, so the Forum software now treats the post as mine.

If you PM me what's supposed to be in it I'll edit it.

I'm not completely ruling out that I made a mistake here but frankly I can't imagine how I could have produced the exact same text in two different edit windows (one for the wrong post) and not even noticed that I'd written it twice. It must have been a bug.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
Psychedelicate She/Her Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: That's rough, buddy
She/Her
#143095: Oct 10th 2016 at 3:14:25 PM

(Offtopic, but note how the two affected posts have the same post number, and were posted at the exact same time. This is a bug that has happened a few times before.)

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#143096: Oct 10th 2016 at 3:14:40 PM

[up][up][up] That's not linking to anything for me.

edited 10th Oct '16 3:15:49 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
Xopher001 Since: Jul, 2012
#143097: Oct 10th 2016 at 3:17:04 PM

Should be now. Apparently some people found some interesting emails in the sea of useless junk. Somehow. Basically that Clinton was "apparently" counting on Trump to win the primary, and that she was lying a lot during the primary

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#143098: Oct 10th 2016 at 3:17:58 PM

About what?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Xopher001 Since: Jul, 2012
#143099: Oct 10th 2016 at 3:20:15 PM

About her opponent, I think. Bernie

BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#143100: Oct 10th 2016 at 3:20:16 PM

I think this is probably the original PolitiFact article I was talking about. So it's not the same as the one I linked a couple of posts back.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

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