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Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#142501: Oct 9th 2016 at 10:07:17 AM

Only thing I can think of so far that fits that mold is when people feel there's no problem with a criminal convicted of some heinous crime (which ironically includes rape) getting raped in prison - even going so far as to joke about or relish it.

And what about people bragging about being able to do whatever they want with woman due the fact they are rich and powerful? Like Trump did in that tape. That is rape culture as well. As is all other forms people minimize, joke and endorse sexual assault.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#142502: Oct 9th 2016 at 10:10:01 AM

[up][up] Should I assume you're being sarcastic?

[down][down] That's more or less how I've always interpreted it.

edited 9th Oct '16 10:13:38 AM by sgamer82

BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#142503: Oct 9th 2016 at 10:10:22 AM

The fundamental attitude of his comments is that it's not wrong to abuse women. What is wrong is that sometimes there is a fuss raised about it, and the way to avert that is by being so famous (or rich or powerful, which is the more general concept here) that it becomes very difficult or impossible for the victim to resist.

So rather than men abusing women, the problem, in Trump's ideology, is that men don't always get away with it. The fact that he values the man's desires over the woman's rights is the central issue that people have with his comments.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#142504: Oct 9th 2016 at 10:10:23 AM

[up][up][up][up] I mean, all that's saying is that if you think of people as things, it makes it easier for you to commit violent acts against them (and I don't just mean physical violence).

Is that an objectionable statement?

edited 9th Oct '16 10:10:40 AM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#142505: Oct 9th 2016 at 10:15:35 AM

I did get the quote slightly wrong. It's "treat people as things" not "think of people as things"

"...And that's what your holy men discuss, is it?" [asked Granny Weatherwax.]

"Not usually. There is a very interesting debate raging at the moment on the nature of sin. for example." [answered Mightily Oats.]

"And what do they think? Against it, are they?"

"It's not as simple as that. It's not a black and white issue. There are so many shades of gray."

"Nope."

"Pardon?"

"There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."

"It's a lot more complicated than that—"

"No. It ain't. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they're getting worried that they won't like the truth. People as things, that's where it starts."

"Oh, I'm sure there are worse crimes—"

"But they starts with thinking about people as things..."

—from Carpe Jugulum, by Terry Pratchett.

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#142506: Oct 9th 2016 at 10:18:04 AM

[up][up]No. But when some people think that thoughts alone, sans actions, should be "rooted out", aggressive moral authoritarianism isn't too far behind.

edited 9th Oct '16 10:18:23 AM by nervmeister

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#142507: Oct 9th 2016 at 10:19:44 AM

Nervmeister: It seems weird that we have to explain these things to you. Using the term "rape" in "rape culture" is intentional. It conveys the seriousness of the issue with a word that cannot be anything other than loaded with negative connotations. Rape culture encompasses the general attitude within a society or subgroups of a society that men are entitled to sex with women. Objectification and lewd social behaviors are a side-effect of that attitude.

Thoughts of that nature should be made anathema, such that people expressing them are shunned and people internalize that they are wrong. Nobody is saying to root around in people's brains to eliminate the badthoughts. But thoughts of that nature must be accompanied with a deep sense of shame.

edited 9th Oct '16 10:22:32 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#142508: Oct 9th 2016 at 10:21:03 AM

That's not even remotely what that quote is about, nervmeister. It said nothing about punishing the person having the thought, it was pointing out that's where the moral failings start at. You are literally pulling that out of air.

I'd like to point out that rape culture also treats the perpetrators as more important than the victims. The infamous Steubenville rape case, for instance, had a lot of focus during the trial on how the boy's lives were ruined by this, instead of talking about how horrifically they hurt a young girl their age while she was unconscious. The people who get hurt are unimportant, but the perpetrators can get cast in a tragic or victimized light even when they're getting punished.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#142509: Oct 9th 2016 at 10:38:31 AM

This is generally offtopic.

I would also bet that, when Trump bragged about just grabbing ladies by their nethers, he probably thought that his power, wealth, and fame, acted as such potent aphrodisiacs that consent is assumed. If it occurred to him that fear of consequences of a refusal played a role in it, he promptly erased it from his mind. Trump thinks he's James Bond, not Jabba the Hut.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#142510: Oct 9th 2016 at 10:40:04 AM

On the subject of Trump, I'm also reminded of that Harry Potter quote that you should pay attention to how a man treats his inferiors, not his equals. We have antics like this, the fact that Trump has consistently stiffed people working for him, and so on.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#142511: Oct 9th 2016 at 10:40:50 AM

Not like Trump treats his equals especially well anyways.

As I've said he doesn't care about or respect anything or anyone besides himself.

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#142512: Oct 9th 2016 at 10:47:18 AM

Nervmeister: It seems weird that we have to explain these things to you. Using the term "rape" in "rape culture" is intentional. It conveys the seriousness of the issue with a word that cannot be anything other than loaded with negative connotations. Rape culture encompasses the general attitude within a society or subgroups of a society that men are entitled to sex with women. Objectification and lewd social behaviors are a side-effect of that attitude. Thoughts of that nature should be made anathema, such that people expressing them are shunned and people internalize that they are wrong. Nobody is saying to root around in people's brains to eliminate the badthoughts. But thoughts of that nature must be accompanied with a deep sense of shame
Well, I get that a lot of disturbing crimes have been committed with that mindset you outlined. So cant say I blame you for wanting to give those who espouse it the business end of a verbal onslaught. But unfortunately, there are those out there who'd say you're being "too soft" in how you condemn, and especially discern such a mindset.

That's not even remotely what that quote is about, nervmeister. It said nothing about punishing the person having the thought, it was pointing out that's where the moral failings start at. You are literally pulling that out of air.
Yeah, I may be getting ahead of myself. I dont want to make unfair assumptions.

edited 9th Oct '16 10:52:30 AM by nervmeister

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#142513: Oct 9th 2016 at 10:49:41 AM

Question: have we ever had a candidate (not even necessarily for president - anyone running for a significant office, really) who's gone through the sort of breakdown that Trump currently seems to be having?

edited 9th Oct '16 10:49:58 AM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#142514: Oct 9th 2016 at 10:51:04 AM

First thing that comes to mind, though perhaps not accurate, is that Howard Dean rather lost it for himself when he got way overexcited during a rally and came off as a left-leaning nutbar. I can't remember offhand if he was a candidate or still in the primary stage.

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#142515: Oct 9th 2016 at 10:53:57 AM

[up][up]Maybe Andrew Jackson. And Nixon, if you count his profuse sweating during one debate.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#142516: Oct 9th 2016 at 10:55:19 AM

Howard Dean was never a candidate, just a primary contender at one point. As I recall, the thing that somehow got him disqualified was him giving an exciting shrieking noise during some rally. Which uh... is not even remotely close to a breakdown, nor even remotely close to the debacle currently happening with Trump.

BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#142517: Oct 9th 2016 at 11:02:20 AM

Fivethirtyeight actually did a video where they analysed the "Dean Scream" thing. Apprently it was actually a very normal moment, except that the microphone's settings and the masses of people yelling over him made it sound very weird. Nobody who was actually there thought it sounded or looked strange - he was just enthusiastic and yelling "YEEEAAH!". It was only on TV replays, with just that scream and a couple of second before it presented, together with the distorted audio from the TV microphone, that it sounded weird.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
storyyeller More like giant cherries from Appleloosa Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
More like giant cherries
#142518: Oct 9th 2016 at 11:06:57 AM

Even listening to the audio alone, it doesn't sound unusual to me at all. I guess it's just another manufactured controversy.

Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's Play
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#142519: Oct 9th 2016 at 11:12:47 AM

I don't understand. Tiny bullshit like that can cost you an election, but after all Trump did, he's still here...

EDIT: That was fast...

JK Rowling has a point.

edited 9th Oct '16 11:17:19 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Tacitus Since: Jan, 2001
#142520: Oct 9th 2016 at 11:15:45 AM

He's where he wants to be, and when he goes to his rallies and sees his die-hard supporters, he's convinced he can still win.

re: screaming politicians - I don't think the YEEAAAAHHH!!! is what got Dean disqualified, he was like Bernie Sanders at that point, lots of vocal support from young voters and others, but not enough to beat the party's favored nominee in the primaries. Then the scream hit the news and perpetuated the idea that the guy was too unstable to win the nomination, which led to John Kerry on the ballot and a second term of George W. Bush.

It may be early to be sure but the initial effect of Donald's current scandal is still pretty small among Republican voters. A significant number of them were seemingly mollified by the non-apology apology.

Yeah, I can see this. Decide that Trump is just as bad as Bill Clinton was, reason that if Democrats were willing to put up with Bill's personal failings and support his policies, they can do the same for Trump. Anything to keep Hillary out of the White House, get those pro-life Supreme Court Justices, etc.

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#142522: Oct 9th 2016 at 11:24:09 AM

If true, I wouldn't except that to make much difference, because he has very little ground left to lose among Black voters.

Artificius from about a foot and a half away from a monitor. Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Norwegian Wood
#142523: Oct 9th 2016 at 11:31:19 AM

[up]Any ground lost would be among white voters who figured him for unfairly pegged as racist. Like the hot-mic moment he's currently struggling with, an actual quote might actually hit them harder than complicated allegations and a long, checkered history. For them, it's thought that Trump is probably a philandering bigot, but they're willing to give him the benefit of the doubt if a vote for him protects conservative interests. They require much more visceral evidence of his racism than the almost certainly true allegations that he kept black people from living on his property back in the 90's or however that nonsense went, even if he settled when it went to court and basically admitted he had such policies.

edited 9th Oct '16 11:39:58 AM by Artificius

"I have no fear, for fear is the little death that kills me over and over. Without fear, I die but once."
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#142524: Oct 9th 2016 at 11:39:15 AM

Then again, I'd like Trump to denounce his remaining voter base as "losers" and then go on a rant denouncing Religion smile.

Keep Rolling On
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#142525: Oct 9th 2016 at 11:52:32 AM

That would probably score points with the "skeptic" (they aren't. Not anymore.) part of the alt-right, but would certainly cost him whatever is left of the evangelical vote.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot

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