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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
The fundamental attitude of his comments is that it's not wrong to abuse women. What is wrong is that sometimes there is a fuss raised about it, and the way to avert that is by being so famous (or rich or powerful, which is the more general concept here) that it becomes very difficult or impossible for the victim to resist.
So rather than men abusing women, the problem, in Trump's ideology, is that men don't always get away with it. The fact that he values the man's desires over the woman's rights is the central issue that people have with his comments.
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.![]()
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I mean, all that's saying is that if you think of people as things, it makes it easier for you to commit violent acts against them (and I don't just mean physical violence).
Is that an objectionable statement?
edited 9th Oct '16 10:10:40 AM by KarkatTheDalek
Oh God! Natural light!I did get the quote slightly wrong. It's "treat people as things" not "think of people as things"
"Not usually. There is a very interesting debate raging at the moment on the nature of sin. for example." [answered Mightily Oats.]
"And what do they think? Against it, are they?"
"It's not as simple as that. It's not a black and white issue. There are so many shades of gray."
"Nope."
"Pardon?"
"There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
"It's a lot more complicated than that—"
"No. It ain't. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they're getting worried that they won't like the truth. People as things, that's where it starts."
"Oh, I'm sure there are worse crimes—"
"But they starts with thinking about people as things..."
Nervmeister: It seems weird that we have to explain these things to you. Using the term "rape" in "rape culture" is intentional. It conveys the seriousness of the issue with a word that cannot be anything other than loaded with negative connotations. Rape culture encompasses the general attitude within a society or subgroups of a society that men are entitled to sex with women. Objectification and lewd social behaviors are a side-effect of that attitude.
Thoughts of that nature should be made anathema, such that people expressing them are shunned and people internalize that they are wrong. Nobody is saying to root around in people's brains to eliminate the badthoughts. But thoughts of that nature must be accompanied with a deep sense of shame.
edited 9th Oct '16 10:22:32 AM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"That's not even remotely what that quote is about, nervmeister. It said nothing about punishing the person having the thought, it was pointing out that's where the moral failings start at. You are literally pulling that out of air.
I'd like to point out that rape culture also treats the perpetrators as more important than the victims. The infamous Steubenville rape case, for instance, had a lot of focus during the trial on how the boy's lives were ruined by this, instead of talking about how horrifically they hurt a young girl their age while she was unconscious. The people who get hurt are unimportant, but the perpetrators can get cast in a tragic or victimized light even when they're getting punished.
This is generally offtopic.
I would also bet that, when Trump bragged about just grabbing ladies by their nethers, he probably thought that his power, wealth, and fame, acted as such potent aphrodisiacs that consent is assumed. If it occurred to him that fear of consequences of a refusal played a role in it, he promptly erased it from his mind. Trump thinks he's James Bond, not Jabba the Hut.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.edited 9th Oct '16 10:52:30 AM by nervmeister
Question: have we ever had a candidate (not even necessarily for president - anyone running for a significant office, really) who's gone through the sort of breakdown that Trump currently seems to be having?
edited 9th Oct '16 10:49:58 AM by KarkatTheDalek
Oh God! Natural light!![]()
Maybe Andrew Jackson. And Nixon, if you count his profuse sweating during one debate.
Howard Dean was never a candidate, just a primary contender at one point. As I recall, the thing that somehow got him disqualified was him giving an exciting shrieking noise during some rally. Which uh... is not even remotely close to a breakdown, nor even remotely close to the debacle currently happening with Trump.
Fivethirtyeight actually did a video where they analysed the "Dean Scream" thing. Apprently it was actually a very normal moment, except that the microphone's settings and the masses of people yelling over him made it sound very weird. Nobody who was actually there thought it sounded or looked strange - he was just enthusiastic and yelling "YEEEAAH!". It was only on TV replays, with just that scream and a couple of second before it presented, together with the distorted audio from the TV microphone, that it sounded weird.
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.Even listening to the audio alone, it doesn't sound unusual to me at all. I guess it's just another manufactured controversy.
Blind Final Fantasy 6 Let's PlayI don't understand. Tiny bullshit like that can cost you an election, but after all Trump did, he's still here...
EDIT: That was fast...
edited 9th Oct '16 11:17:19 AM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.He's where he wants to be, and when he goes to his rallies and sees his die-hard supporters, he's convinced he can still win.
re: screaming politicians - I don't think the YEEAAAAHHH!!! is what got Dean disqualified, he was like Bernie Sanders at that point, lots of vocal support from young voters and others, but not enough to beat the party's favored nominee in the primaries. Then the scream hit the news and perpetuated the idea that the guy was too unstable to win the nomination, which led to John Kerry on the ballot and a second term of George W. Bush.
Yeah, I can see this. Decide that Trump is just as bad as Bill Clinton was, reason that if Democrats were willing to put up with Bill's personal failings and support his policies, they can do the same for Trump. Anything to keep Hillary out of the White House, get those pro-life Supreme Court Justices, etc.
Any ground lost would be among white voters who figured him for unfairly pegged as racist. Like the hot-mic moment he's currently struggling with, an actual quote might actually hit them harder than complicated allegations and a long, checkered history. For them, it's thought that Trump is probably a philandering bigot, but they're willing to give him the benefit of the doubt if a vote for him protects conservative interests. They require much more visceral evidence of his racism than the almost certainly true allegations that he kept black people from living on his property back in the 90's or however that nonsense went, even if he settled when it went to court and basically admitted he had such policies.
edited 9th Oct '16 11:39:58 AM by Artificius
"I have no fear, for fear is the little death that kills me over and over. Without fear, I die but once."That would probably score points with the "skeptic" (they aren't. Not anymore.) part of the alt-right, but would certainly cost him whatever is left of the evangelical vote.
I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot

And what about people bragging about being able to do whatever they want with woman due the fact they are rich and powerful? Like Trump did in that tape. That is rape culture as well. As is all other forms people minimize, joke and endorse sexual assault.