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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#141501: Oct 4th 2016 at 8:13:02 AM

[up][up] It's only less costly because the Obama administration's rule lawyering on the defenition of civilian.

[up] It's more or less the same thing.

edited 4th Oct '16 8:13:57 AM by CaptainCapsase

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#141502: Oct 4th 2016 at 8:15:52 AM

I'm strangely impressed that Assange is enough of an "asshole" without actually committing murder to make people honestly consider whether drone bombing him is worth it. That's like, Martin Shkreli-level heat he's earned.

edited 4th Oct '16 8:18:46 AM by nervmeister

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#141503: Oct 4th 2016 at 8:20:10 AM

[up][up][up]No they wouldn't.

[up][up][up][up]I don't buy it. Not the way the CIA's been doing this.

edited 5th Oct '16 3:26:49 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#141504: Oct 4th 2016 at 8:22:37 AM

[up][up] the funny thing is, if the GOP had the presidency, he's be a hero to the democrats and his alleged rapes would be completely glossed over in liberal circles and dismissed as trumped up charges.

The realization that whether something is viewed "good" or "bad" is largely a partisan issue is something that I'd argue is critical to understanding modern American politics. Perhaps even politics in general across all of history.

edited 4th Oct '16 8:24:13 AM by CaptainCapsase

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#141505: Oct 4th 2016 at 8:23:55 AM

Oh get off your high horse man, we'd still find him a disgusting little shit.

Oh really when?
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#141506: Oct 4th 2016 at 8:24:53 AM

[up] You might, but that's not what matters to political figures, and more broadly to the general public.

edited 4th Oct '16 8:25:37 AM by CaptainCapsase

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#141507: Oct 4th 2016 at 8:27:27 AM

[up]Hey, politics are partisan and often irrational. And today, the sun rose. I predict that it will set, and that the air tomorrow will have a temperature. You don't win any rhetorical points by stating the blindingly obvious as if it were a damning indictment of the system. Nor is this some unique fact of American politics.

edited 4th Oct '16 8:29:23 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#141508: Oct 4th 2016 at 8:30:08 AM

[up] That "blindingly obvious" statement more or less demonstrates the point of those asserting that, at least in some regards, both American political parties are the same in how they use their power.

edited 4th Oct '16 8:31:14 AM by CaptainCapsase

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#141509: Oct 4th 2016 at 8:36:30 AM

The Democrats would be dropping him like a hot potato as soon as his rape allegations became public. PR still mattters.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#141510: Oct 4th 2016 at 8:38:15 AM

[up][up] The trappings of power are universal. That said, only someone astonishingly ignorant or operating under an ideological agenda could possibly hold the two U.S. parties as substantially similar.

I keep talking to people like this: "The system is inherently corrupt. Both parties abuse power and do illegal things. It's all a bunch of politicians taking rich people's money to screw over everyone else. We need to tear down the system and put one in place that's fair." This is such a cop-out, such an abrogation of intellectual responsibility, that it'd be shocking if I hadn't heard it so often. Your "3edgy5me" hipster cynicism doesn't impress at all.

edited 4th Oct '16 8:41:57 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#141511: Oct 4th 2016 at 8:42:50 AM

[up] In terms of rhetoric, the difference is substantial yes, and there is some tangible differences in regards to economic policy, and a somewhat larger gap in terms of social policy. But for the rest of the world, that's largely irrelevant; foreign policy is pretty consistent between parties.

edited 4th Oct '16 8:44:28 AM by CaptainCapsase

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#141512: Oct 4th 2016 at 8:46:40 AM

"Both parties are the same" "What makes you say that?" "Well, for example, if Assange was messing with a Republican president, we'd be cheering him on" "What's your evidence for that?" "Because both parties are the same."

In other news, circular reasoning works because circular reasoning works.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#141513: Oct 4th 2016 at 8:46:48 AM

No offense, but as I point out again and again, I don't quite think you're going to face the consequences of the very stark, very real differences between the parties.

One party believes in a strong safety night (and PLEASE don't give me what the Democrats did in the 90s). One party sees them as 'entitlements' that must be annihilated because people work best with the freedom to starve.

One party believes climate change is real and a major threat to human civilization. One party believes it's liberal hogwash.

One party believes in funding the arts and the sciences. One party believes this sort of thing is absurd.

One party believes big banks should face some sort of regulation so they can't destroy the economy. One party believes regulations are a sinister plot to inhibit business.

One party believes in national parks, and environmental protection. One party believes the EPA needs to be dismantled and national parks should be sold to the states to be parsed off to private interests.

One party believes that just maybe, we should adhere to traditional interrogation methods and civil rights. The other party believes quite openly "let's torture them because they deserve it" and due process ceases to matter if we don't like you.

It is a measure of extreme privilege to claim both parties are the same, or even superficially similar when for some people the difference is being able to vote, to eat, breathe clean air and drink clean water and in some cases, the difference between life and death. You think Republican philosophy didn't influence the massive screw ups with FEMA, which contrasts starkly to how Obama has handled the same organization?

And look at states that accepted the Medicaid expansion versus states that didn't. It is not hyperbole to say people have died without life saving care that could have been saved if not for a certain political party.

edited 4th Oct '16 8:49:43 AM by Lightysnake

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#141514: Oct 4th 2016 at 8:49:18 AM

@Capsace: Again, that is a ridiculously narrow view of the differences between the two parties, that can only be supported by an aggressive indifference to nuance. Anyway, if your sole interest in U.S. politics is foreign policy, then you're missing out on about 90% of the actual debate, so... yeah. Thanks for sharing.

edited 4th Oct '16 8:49:34 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#141515: Oct 4th 2016 at 8:49:29 AM

"foreign policy is pretty consistent between parties."

Depends on what you want it to be. What do you want American foreign policy to be?

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#141516: Oct 4th 2016 at 8:50:23 AM

It also...isn't?

You cannot compare the foreign policies of Bush and Obama. It simply cannot be done with any sort of intellectual honesty.

Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#141517: Oct 4th 2016 at 8:51:59 AM

It's no cleaner than conventional strategic bombing which itself is a form of terrorism by the official defenition of the term.
Whoa now, back the fuck up. Drone strikes may not be clean like some sort of magical space-based sniper rifle that can only hit people that are universally agreed to be acceptable targets, but they are a shit-ton cleaner than strategic bombing. Or have there been some secret campaigns of massive, concentrated drone attacks on cities that indiscriminately killed tens of thousands and created self-sustaining firestorms that I didn't hear about? Because there is an enormous difference in scale between drone strikes and strategic bombing, as can be plainly seen by the fact that we are not routinely recreating the firebombing of Dresden.

And WHAT official definition of terrorism? There is no official, internationally agreed upon definition of terrorism. From Wikipedia:

The definition of terrorism has proven controversial. Various legal systems and government agencies use different definitions of terrorism in their national legislation. Moreover, the international community has been slow to formulate a universally agreed, legally binding definition of this crime. These difficulties arise from the fact that the term "terrorism" is politically and emotionally charged.

For example, by the United States' definition (U.S. Code Title 22 Chapter 38, Section 2656f(d) defines terrorism as: "Premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience."), you could not argue that strategic bombing is terrorism, nor could you easily argue that the USAF's use of drones constitutes terrorism, though you might be able to argue that the CIA, as a clandestine organization, is committing terrorism when it does drone strikes.

Under other definitions, terrorism cannot be committed by state actors, and instead, their transgressions are already adequately described under international law that relies on less contentious and more clearly defined terminology than terrorism, such as war crimes and international human rights law.

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#141518: Oct 4th 2016 at 8:54:09 AM

The only way Republican and Democratic foreign policies "remain the same" is if you want a dramatic paradigm shift in how the US interacts with the rest of the world, and from that perspective, American foreign policy remains broadly similar because there are only a few politically acceptable ways to maneuver within international institutions as they stand today. You can't reshape reality to fit ideology.

edited 4th Oct '16 8:54:42 AM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#141519: Oct 4th 2016 at 9:08:26 AM

The main differences I see between Bush and Obama is that Obama is more willing to negotiate with state actors, seek multi-lateral solutions and carry a good reputation. He was less forceful on the initial Syria things than I think he should have been but he's continued the War on Terror in a way that a Republican would approve of it the Republicans weren't hellbent on discrediting his every move.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#141520: Oct 4th 2016 at 9:10:03 AM

He difference between Obama and Bush in terms of foreign policy is that Bush ended up in a situation where the UN didn't sign off on his wars, Obama didn't. That reflects better on his competence, and he has certainly been above average in regards to non-hawkishness.

edited 4th Oct '16 9:13:23 AM by CaptainCapsase

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#141521: Oct 4th 2016 at 9:12:53 AM

So all wars and conflicts are equal and the only difference is how well you can sell them to the public?

Oh really when?
TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#141522: Oct 4th 2016 at 9:13:38 AM

Regarding the recent topic of disagreement:

Have we been here before? I feel like we've been here before. Maybe we should move on from conversations where, to all appearances, certain people have no intention of even considering changing their mind or addressing their biases.

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#141523: Oct 4th 2016 at 9:13:56 AM

Obama dialed back on unilateralism, and didn't wage wars on blatantly false premises.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#141524: Oct 4th 2016 at 9:14:10 AM

[up][up][up] Broadly speaking, yes. War represents a failure of diplomacy.

edited 4th Oct '16 9:15:29 AM by CaptainCapsase

flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#141525: Oct 4th 2016 at 9:14:12 AM

Or the need to sustain the weapon industry.

edited 4th Oct '16 9:16:07 AM by flameboy21th

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