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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#140026: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:50:30 PM

[up] Is that surprising or mostly just formality?

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#140027: Sep 24th 2016 at 5:53:08 PM

[up]x4 — Nixon and Ford had been good friends for years. Even when Tricky Dick saw himself surrounded by enemies, Jerry Ford was one of the few people he implicitly trusted. [1]

edited 24th Sep '16 6:05:58 PM by pwiegle

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#140028: Sep 24th 2016 at 6:21:20 PM

[up] Ah, thank you! That's very interesting (and I suppose oddly touching, in a way).

Oh God! Natural light!
940131 Since: Feb, 2014
#140029: Sep 24th 2016 at 6:52:02 PM

[up] The Founders must have been far sighted. Do you know where it says that in the Constitution?

I did a quick search and it says Obama's deported 2 million immigrants. Most of them were deported without due process.

edited 24th Sep '16 6:54:53 PM by 940131

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#140030: Sep 24th 2016 at 8:30:59 PM

Racists and stupid.

The Economist: Who’s deplorable?

It is perilously hard to criticise Donald Trump without seeming to insult his voters

WHEN Hillary Clinton recently said that she puts half of Donald Trump’s supporters in a “basket of deplorables”, calling such folk “racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamophobic—you name it,” her Republican rival gleefully dubbed this outburst “the single biggest mistake of the political season”. Certainly, Mrs Clinton does seem to have broken a cardinal rule of politics: attack those running for office and their policies by all means, but never blame the voters. As Democrats scrambled to defend their nominee, they urged Americans to consider Mrs Clinton’s remarks in context, and to study the kindlier thoughts that she shared next, about how she puts other Trump backers into a second “basket”, unhappily filled with folk who feel the government and the economy has let them down, leaving them “just desperate for change” and deserving of understanding.

Alas, if Clinton allies think that sympathy will get them off the hook, they may be misjudging how much voters enjoy being called “desperate”. Take a step back, and the whole Trump-bashing riff by Mrs Clinton, delivered on September 9th against the slightly unhelpful backdrop of a fund-raising gala in Manhattan, points to a dreadful dilemma that the Republican presidential nominee represents for the entire political establishment, meaning not just Mrs Clinton and the Democrats, but principled and thoughtful Republicans, and (at the risk of navel-gazing) journalists trying to report fairly on this election, too.

Put simply, Mr Trump’s shtick should not be working. In part, that is because he has repeatedly made appeals to bigotry since entering the race more than a year ago. It is dismaying to see so many Americans either nod in agreement or pretend not to hear what he is really saying. To be still more blunt, to anyone with their critical faculties undimmed by partisan rage or calculation, he is obviously a con-man. He is a self-styled billionaire who will not reveal his tax returns and claims credit for acts of charity that others funded. He is a portly 70-year old who likes to insinuate that Mrs Clinton is in desperate health while declining to reveal his own medical records. Then there are his promises to restore American greatness if elected president, and to do this at head-spinning speed (“so fast”, is a favourite Trump boast). In a country long used to fibbing candidates and policy platforms constructed out of flim-flam and magic money, Mr Trump breaks new ground. He is, arguably, the first major party nominee to realise that when working to please a crowd, there is no reason to offer policies that even try to make sense. Just start with the businessman’s most famous promise, that he can make Mexico pay for a 2,000-mile border wall which will stop both illegal migration and drug smuggling: a nonsensical claim that reliably provokes roars of delight at Trump rallies, and chants of “Build That Wall”.

Mrs Clinton has now revealed that two aspects of the Trump phenomenon appal her. She is disgusted by how many of her countrymen cheer his nastiest attacks on women and minorities—though she later expressed regret for saying that she thinks fully “half” his supporters are prejudiced. She also sorrows that so many are wretched enough to fall for his empty promises—though, during her riff in Manhattan about understanding Trump-fans, she correctly noted that those pinning their hopes on the Republican may not buy “everything that he says”. Conventional wisdom holds that her disgust will hurt her more than her sorrow. The Trump campaign clearly agrees, rushing out TV ads for use in battleground states, replaying the “deplorables” line and accusing Mrs Clinton of “viciously demonising hard-working people like you.” Conventional wisdom is wrong. Calling Trump-backers bigots is a gamble that could yet pay off. Greater peril lurks in telling them that they are marks for a con-man.

True, Mrs Clinton’s analysis of Trumpian bigotry was horribly sweeping. At one point she called some Trump voters “irredeemable”, which was inexcusable. She has further enraged conservatives: some Trump-backers struck defiant poses in hastily printed “Deplorables” T-shirts. But here is another truth, born of today’s deep partisan divisions. Most Trump-backers were lost to Mrs Clinton long ago. If she is lucky, her words will help her, by firing up apathetic Democrats and by depressing the Trump vote among squeamish Republicans—among them moderate professionals and suburban women who do not want to back a bigot.

If the question from enraged Trump voters is: “Who are you calling racists?”, Mrs Clinton may yet feel safe staring them down. The rest of the political establishment is more or less comfortable weighing that question, too: rival politicians, journalists and the fact-checkers employed by news outlets are all accustomed to assessing claims that a given policy will have an outsize impact on a particular race, ethnicity or religious group. Instead, it is another question from Trump-backers that makes political professionals squirm with discomfort, including many reporters and pundits. That question is: “Are you calling us stupid?” Social class makes that discomfort still sharper, as polls and campaign-trail interviews reveal how much of Mr Trump’s support comes from blue-collar whites who hail him not just a candidate, but a champion who sees the world as they do and speaks for them, only with the authority of a fabulously successful businessman.

Fact-checking a peddler of dreams

In short, Mr Trump has brilliantly manoeuvred himself into a place in which fact-checking him sounds like snobbery. As his campaign manager, Kellyanne Conway, has bragged: “He’s built a movement and people are proud to be a part of it. When you insult him, you insult them.” That makes the presidential debates, set to start on September 26th, more important than ever: they are Mrs Clinton’s best chance to challenge Mr Trump’s nonsense directly, without seeming to scold his fans. The Republican is already trying to intimidate the moderators, growling that debates will be “rigged”. Good. That means he knows what is at stake.

edited 24th Sep '16 8:31:17 PM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#140031: Sep 24th 2016 at 9:39:56 PM

[up]TLDR. Do you think you could give a summary? (No offense.)

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#140032: Sep 24th 2016 at 10:08:49 PM

[up][up][up]You're right about the 2 million, but how are you sure most were removed without due process?

940131 Since: Feb, 2014
#140033: Sep 24th 2016 at 11:17:38 PM

That's what the reports are saying, but it makes sense. How long would it take to go through two million undocumented immigrants?

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#140034: Sep 24th 2016 at 11:22:26 PM

I'd estimate that it would take roughly eight years.

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#140035: Sep 24th 2016 at 11:27:00 PM

[up][up]If the reports did say that, I must've overlooked it. Where did it say that, again?

edited 24th Sep '16 11:27:47 PM by nervmeister

GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#140036: Sep 24th 2016 at 11:46:23 PM

I would assume that there is some due process involved just to make sure that they aren't legal immigrants.

Wizard Needs Food Badly
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#140037: Sep 24th 2016 at 11:47:10 PM

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/09/politico-harvard-poll-free-trade-trump-gop-228600

So, how much evidence is gonna be needed before people accept the fact that conservatism generally has no consistent ideology aside from hating black and brown people?

New Survey coming this weekend!
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#140038: Sep 24th 2016 at 11:50:04 PM

I saw a commercial for the first debate that made it look like a fucking wrestling PPV and I've never been so frustrated and saddened by the current climate of American political discourse.

My various fanfics.
940131 Since: Feb, 2014
#140039: Sep 25th 2016 at 1:14:50 AM

[up]x2 “The tariff is to the government what a meal is to the family; but, while this is admitted, it still becomes necessary to modify and change its operations according to new interests and new circumstances.” - Lincoln

Most Republicans don't know this, but their party was founded on protectionism. Not free market capitalism.

edited 25th Sep '16 1:15:54 AM by 940131

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#140040: Sep 25th 2016 at 2:55:09 AM

Well, they did want free movement of labor.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#140041: Sep 25th 2016 at 4:11:35 AM

So... Tomorrow is the big day, huh? When is the debate going to start? My laptop's clock has both EST and PST time alongside the local time.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#140042: Sep 25th 2016 at 7:23:46 AM

Are we gonna do a live play-by-play reactions?

New Survey coming this weekend!
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#140043: Sep 25th 2016 at 7:48:00 AM

Not sure if it's been posted yet, but the police department released the videos they had of the shooting in North Carolina, and I have to say - I'm not exactly convinced. The dash-cam footage didn't show any form of aggressive body movement, and I'm really curious as to why the body-cam's audio didn't really kick in until after the shooting occurred.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#140044: Sep 25th 2016 at 7:54:42 AM

@Jovian: Obviously it's almost certainly not going to work, and things would probably settle down after a while, but the mere fact that something like that happened could severely destabilize the American political system; that sort of constitutional crisis is the very sort of thing that has been the death knell of numerous other presidential democracies, or at least the prelude to major internal strife.

@940131: Deporting illegal immigrants isn't unconstitutional, neither is banning Muslim immigration or building a border wall (and in fact, only the last one would actually require congress, frighteningly enough), but there are numerous other "proposals" that Trump has made that absolutely would be. Even if those are just his usual bluffs, considering Trump's personality, even with a Republican majority in congress and the courts, it's only a matter of time before he ends up butting heads with congress or the supreme court over one thing or another, and Trump is nothing if not accustomed to having things his way.

edited 25th Sep '16 8:00:24 AM by CaptainCapsase

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#140045: Sep 25th 2016 at 7:57:36 AM

Here's something from the Ask Marilyn column in my local newspaper (by Marilyn vos Savant):

Q: Many Americans, including me, believe that politicians will say almost anything to get votes. Can anything be done about this?

A: Here's one possibility for discussion: Stop campaign polling, which helps candidates monitor the pulse of the electorate and promotes those who are willing to morph into whatever will get them elected. Those are followers, not leaders. Plus, polling results may inappropriately influence voters.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#140046: Sep 25th 2016 at 8:20:56 AM

There's something of a dilemma in play here. Call the die-hard Trump supporters irredeemable low-information bigots, and you get chastised for not being inclusive. Try to appeal to their reason and nothing happens. Try to point out facts and you get called elitist and condescending. So... how much of this is people desperately clinging to the notion that the rift in American society is somehow capable of being healed?

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#140047: Sep 25th 2016 at 8:25:24 AM

I'm not sure anyone has the answer to that question. I'm worried it might simply be too late to stop what's been set in motion over the past year; too many people have lost all faith in the political establishment, the mainstream media, and so on; it may be that nothing we can say or do will change their minds.

edited 25th Sep '16 8:27:43 AM by CaptainCapsase

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#140048: Sep 25th 2016 at 8:32:25 AM

[up] Nothing legal, anyway.

Keep Rolling On
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#140049: Sep 25th 2016 at 8:37:30 AM

[up][up][up][up]

...But the chart says...

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#140050: Sep 25th 2016 at 9:35:46 AM

So... how much of this is people desperately clinging to the notion that the rift in American society is somehow capable of being healed?

Well, I mean, saying it can't be healed also poses a problem. Like, obviously you can't just ignore the toxic racist/anti-fact sentiments for ever, but just writing off all of the people who might hold them as lost causes comes with problems too.

And I get that you, specifically have never been that broad, but other people here definitely have been.


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