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CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#139801: Sep 23rd 2016 at 7:35:37 AM

[up] Even democrats are at a historic low for this poll (lower even than the Bush years), and believe it or not, Republicans plus independents are a much larger chunk of the electorate than registered democrats.

I hope I'm wrong here, but it might already be too late.

edited 23rd Sep '16 7:49:27 AM by CaptainCapsase

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#139802: Sep 23rd 2016 at 7:50:25 AM

Sure, but "mass media" is a broad umbrella term. A lot of people hear that and immediately think "the liberal media" because the term doesn't actually have a precise definition. In fact, I just Googled it and the literal definition is "the media" which is hilariously useless.

For instance, Conservative faith in media is low, but is that because they think ALL media is lying, or is it because the people polled just aren't counting things like FOX News and Breitbart, which they see as the REAL news?

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CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#139803: Sep 23rd 2016 at 7:57:21 AM

The poll I cited (from one of the most accredited pollsters out there) specified "mass media" as "newspapers, radio stations, and television."

While this trend is the most pronounced among Republicans, it's pretty stark among democrats and independents, and only democrats have a majority (even then just barely) of people trusting completely or trusting mostly those aforementioned mediums.

It should also be noted that ONLY 7% of adult Americans have "a great deal of trust in the media." That figure is abysmal among all stripes of voters, and it's where you see the sharpest decline.

edited 23rd Sep '16 8:03:53 AM by CaptainCapsase

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#139804: Sep 23rd 2016 at 8:08:03 AM

Okay, fine, trust in the mass media is low, but let's look at why that trust is low. On the right, it's because their pet propaganda network has gone out of its way to sow distrust in anything that doesn't fit their ideological doctrine. On the left, it's because the networks that people once trusted have stopped reporting truth and have started reporting "opinions on shape of Earth differ".

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#139805: Sep 23rd 2016 at 8:11:35 AM

[up] That's your reasoning. Perhaps it is typical of democrats, perhaps it is not. Without statistical evidence to back that position up, there is no reason to assume that Republicans' reasons for distrusting the media differs substantially from that of democrats or independents.

In fact, you're more or less proving my point; the flip side of your particular stance is something I've personally encountered numerous times among Republicans. Unfortunately, as far as I know, there are no scientific polls which address this particular question.

edited 23rd Sep '16 8:12:20 AM by CaptainCapsase

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#139806: Sep 23rd 2016 at 8:15:22 AM

The way mainstream news is reported has not actually changed that much this decade outside the rise of Fox and ilk. It's the current circumstances that make it more dire.

Actually there is one other factor: the internet rose as an alternate news and/or "news" source.

edited 23rd Sep '16 8:17:29 AM by Elle

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#139807: Sep 23rd 2016 at 8:17:46 AM

14% is the reason to assume that. 32% is the average for Americans and the Independents are right up next to that with 30%.

However, with Republicans all the way over at 14%, this implies a huge difference in how a Republican views common media versus the average American. The same goes for the Dems' 51%.

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#139808: Sep 23rd 2016 at 8:18:44 AM

the flip side of your particular stance is something I've personally encountered numerous times among Republicans.
Look, it's not hard. And it's not a matter of polling: polling can tell what people believe the facts to be, but not what the facts actually are.

A Democrat says, "Climate change is a serious problem, it is man-made, and it can be addressed without tearing down our civilization." A Republican says, "Climate change is a hoax perpetrated by the left."

One of those two statements is objectively true. A responsible news network would say, "The Republican's statement is factually incorrect, as 99% of scientists agree on the nature and causes of climate change." Further, this statement would be true regardless of the political affiliations of the people it is discussing.

Instead, the networks bring on a "climate skeptic" and a "climate scientist" to argue and then put up a poll showing public opinion on the matter, pretending that: (a) scientific facts are matters of opinion; (b) there is more-or-less equal validity to both sides of the argument.

This scenario permeates our news media at almost every level and has for a long time. Now, we are reaping the result: a public that distrusts the very idea of factual reporting and prefers to wallow in isolated groups of shared beliefs.

Let's present a small list:

  • Tobacco is a deadly, addictive drug.
  • Seat belts save lives when worn properly.
  • Violent crime has decreased in the United States over the past decades.
  • The United States has landed human beings on the Moon and brought them home.
  • The rate of global temperature increase over the past century is unprecedented in the geological history of the Earth.
  • John Maynard Keynes and his successors presented the most accurate model of macroeconomics that we have to-date.
  • The Earth is roughly spherical and orbits the Sun.
  • Our universe is approximately 13.7 billion years old and the Earth formed 4.5 billion years ago. Life on Earth began approximately 3.5 billion years ago.
  • Barack Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii to a U.S. citizen.

If you believe any of these things to be "matters of opinion", you are a victim of the disinformation culture of our society.

edited 23rd Sep '16 8:36:42 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#139809: Sep 23rd 2016 at 8:22:11 AM

[up][up] Correlation does not imply causation; it's entirely possible that the cause for the two drops is the same, but some secondary factor has caused this to be far more severe among Republicans. Further data is required before we can conclude that the reason for the difference between Republican and Democrat confidence in the media arises from a difference in their rationale.

[up] Before we continue, do you have any background in statistics, or a scientific field which relies heavily on statistics to evaluate results (i.e. Political science)? I'm asking because I need to know what level of jargon I can use to explain my position.

edited 23rd Sep '16 8:31:54 AM by CaptainCapsase

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#139810: Sep 23rd 2016 at 8:27:44 AM

[up][up]And the severity.

edited 23rd Sep '16 8:28:05 AM by TobiasDrake

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Lost in Space
#139811: Sep 23rd 2016 at 8:34:55 AM

[up][up] What is your position? Because if it's that facts are matters of public belief, then I think we will not find common ground. I have no specific background in statistics or polisci, although I am very good with math in general and a layman's education in politics.

edited 23rd Sep '16 8:43:16 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#139812: Sep 23rd 2016 at 8:36:11 AM

Problem is that over the last year or so we've seen the rise of the "we're tired of so-called experts and their lives" mentality.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
Superdark33 The dark Mage of the playground from Playgrounds and Adventures Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
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#139813: Sep 23rd 2016 at 8:37:24 AM

You get tired on experts when an appearent two of them cant make up their minds on an issue.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#139814: Sep 23rd 2016 at 8:40:29 AM

[up] That's only true when many of the "experts" in question are in reality people with agendas and a callous regard for facts. It's the news media's job to discern them from the real thing. They have blatantly failed to do that job, with the consequence that now people wouldn't trust them even if they started doing it tomorrow.

edited 23rd Sep '16 8:42:53 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#139815: Sep 23rd 2016 at 8:43:16 AM

This sort of thing really makes me wish we could make it illegal for the news media to lie. Unfortunately that won't happen.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#139816: Sep 23rd 2016 at 8:48:35 AM

It already sorta is. We would just need to extend libel laws to include purposeful defamation of facts.

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#139817: Sep 23rd 2016 at 8:50:59 AM

U.S. news media have enormous leeway when it comes to the presentation of facts, and have de facto immunity from libel unless it can be proven beyond any reasonable doubt that the falsehood was both intentional and malicious. Even then, it's an uphill battle.

This is one part of the reason for the disdain for factual analysis in the modern media; the other one is the profit motive. Networks have found that they get more views when they pander to the opinions of their audience. This has led to a gradual de-emphasis on fact checking and an increased emphasis on sensationalism and click-bait.

But let's be honest here: news media weren't any better in ye olden days of glory. The newspapers of yore were fantastically biased and few people even pretended to be doing rigorous analysis. The growth of responsible investigative journalism is very much a 20th century phenomenon, and its decline in the 21st century more a matter of reverting to the status quo ante than anything astonishing from an historical perspective.

edited 23rd Sep '16 8:55:04 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#139818: Sep 23rd 2016 at 8:51:27 AM

One of the major problems with the culture right now is that most people believe (and are taught to believe) that society and "the establishment" as one monolithic force controlled mostly or entirely by "the other side" that causes everything they think is wrong with the world For the Evulz.

This results in a culture that fears "experts" and only trusts "outsiders". And, because the other side is basically evil, there's no point in actually examining the merits of opposing viewpoints-since they don't actually believe the things they say, that's just an excuse for them to oppress people. This results in a compromise-free society.

edited 23rd Sep '16 8:52:08 AM by Protagonist506

Leviticus 19:34
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#139819: Sep 23rd 2016 at 8:53:51 AM

Even when the other side isn't even saying the things that they're willfully ignoring him or her saying.

Hillary's basically inheriting the "COMING FOR YOUR GUNS!" rhetoric from Obama. Just once, before he leaves office, I want President Obama to go to one person's house with his Secret Service, confiscate all their guns, and head back to Washington.

Just once. So it can be in the news but nobody will believe it actually happened. [lol]

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SpookyMask Since: Jan, 2011
#139820: Sep 23rd 2016 at 9:01:32 AM

I'm so confused by US's "fear of the authority" thing combined with how patriotic Americans are ._. That just feels so... Self contradictory. I mean, like isn't the gun rights thing originally be supposed to be something like "In case government will decide to oppress us, we can protect our selves" ...Like, is armed revolt something someone there actually considers a possibility that'd be good thing?...

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#139821: Sep 23rd 2016 at 9:01:56 AM

I don't even think being biased is wrong in itself. I'm biased against Flat Earthers and Climate Deniers. It's a question of whether your bias has a factual reasoning behind it.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#139822: Sep 23rd 2016 at 9:07:01 AM

Unfortunately yes, there is a revolutionary subculture among gun owners. These people have a particular quote they like to throw around from one of the Founding Fathers: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." These are people who've had it instilled in them all their lives that they may one day be called upon to defend FREEDOM and JUSTICE from the evil corrupt liberal government.

And it hasn't happened yet, so now they're getting impatient. They're itching to get started with the ridiculous war that they've spent their lives preparing for. They're just waiting to hear the words, "Shots fired at harmless, well-meaning protestors who were just trying to defend good Christian values!" and we've got groups like the Bundy Militia going out of their way to try and provoke the government into giving it to them.

The main purpose of the Second Amendment is so that if the Queen of England sends troops to retake the colonies, we'll be able to fend off the lobsterbacks because every civilian can be armed. And also for preventing slave insurrections.

edited 23rd Sep '16 9:09:50 AM by TobiasDrake

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Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#139823: Sep 23rd 2016 at 9:09:17 AM

@Spooky Mask: the two are actually connected to some degree. America was founded by a revolution. So, to some people rebellion=patriotism. Also, it's worth pointing out that to most Americans, patriotism doesn't mean loyalty to the state, but to "American ideals". Y'know how Captain America declares that he's loyal first to "the dream" and has moments where he declares Screw the Rules, I'm Doing What's Right!? That's how "rebellious patriots" think of themselves.

For what it's worth though, most gun owners are not Right Wing Militia Fanatics.

edited 23rd Sep '16 9:11:13 AM by Protagonist506

Leviticus 19:34
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#139824: Sep 23rd 2016 at 9:15:22 AM

That so much of our fiction revolves around Screw the Rules, I'm Doing What's Right! certainly doesn't help, either. From the Cowboy Cop to the superhero, you can't turn around without seeing the message that the system is crooked, the government is broken, the police are incompetent if not outright corrupt, and ONLY a noble, heroic individual with a shotgun and the will to use it can save the day.

Our heroes thrive on the idea that authority is illegitimate and violence is noble solution for any problem life throws at you, but only when performed by a private citizen in accordance with his own personally high moral standards.

We have romanticized the self-righteous nutjob trying to fix the world by shooting his problems until they go away. It's really no wonder why we're flooded with them.

edited 23rd Sep '16 9:17:14 AM by TobiasDrake

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#139825: Sep 23rd 2016 at 9:22:37 AM

We didn't always. Not too long ago, the focus of our cultural worship was on the lone lawman standing heroically against the forces of evil. The FBI built its reputation in large part on the back of John Wayne films. To be sure, we have a long history of distrust of bureaucratic inertia, but the rule of law has always been held in high regard.

Cowboy Cop stories usually hold the law itself in respect; it's just that the cop in question often has to go off the rails due to corruption or inertia among his superiors. Think about the Lethal Weapon and Die Hard franchises.

Nowadays, our heroes are more often ex-military or ex-police who find that their former employers are their explicit enemies and that the shadowy conspiracies are to be found in government itself. Definitely symptomatic of a cultural change.

edited 23rd Sep '16 9:25:29 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

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