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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#139726: Sep 22nd 2016 at 8:55:43 PM

The universe, dear god and I thought you guys got arrogant with "leader of the free world", "most powerful man in the universe" holy shit! tongue

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#139727: Sep 22nd 2016 at 8:58:58 PM

[up][up]Y'know, accusing him of dodging isn't an effective response to persistent accusations of dodging. Frankly, anything you say that doesn't directly contain your opinion on whether or not Iraq is better off now is going to work against you, rhetorically speaking.

Also, Trump has not has the same level of scrutiny applied to him of anywhere near the same length of time. People adjacent to the White House always have significantly more scrutiny applied to them than anyone else.

edited 22nd Sep '16 9:00:37 PM by Gilphon

BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#139728: Sep 22nd 2016 at 8:59:17 PM

I'm stunned that she said that. I'm sincerely dumbfounded.

Do not obey in advance.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#139729: Sep 22nd 2016 at 8:59:26 PM

You're dodging. Do you think the Iraqis are better off now than they were under Saddam and if America is such a perfect little flower why did the US support him when he attacked Iran and was gassing the Kurds. Why didn't they go and save the people of Iraq?

Oh good lord the attempts at turnabout here. You raised the question. You have to answer it.

And of course nobody is saying "America is such a perfect little flower". In fact several of us have said literally the exact opposite.

Thank you, though. You just confirmed you're arguing in bad faith.

Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#139730: Sep 22nd 2016 at 9:03:32 PM

1) Vietnam. And Operation Eagle Claw. The US military was too worn out and structurally ill-suited for any sort of intervention in the Middle East at the time, and it would not have been politically acceptable domestically due to those two.

2) There's a world of difference between being "family of the Governor of Arkansas" and "real estate developer who trades on brand instead of feasibility to sell".

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
940131 Since: Feb, 2014
#139731: Sep 22nd 2016 at 9:05:30 PM

@Ambar This is going nowhere. My point was that Iraq was better off before the Invasion. Feel free to disagree.

[up] Trades in brand instead of feasability? I'm not sure what you're talking about or why it's relevant, but being one of the wealthiest and most famous businessman in the country would bring about a great deal of scrutiny.

edited 22nd Sep '16 9:08:06 PM by 940131

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#139732: Sep 22nd 2016 at 9:09:04 PM

I note you still haven't answered my other question. You said Hitler was legitimate. You said legitimate governments should not be overthrown by outsiders. You said that country's should do what they want in their sphere of influence.

So, given Hitler's legitimacy and that Poland is within Germany's traditional sphere of influence, were the Allies wrong to try and overthrow him? I'll note once more that you can't call Godwin since you opened this door by stating he was legit.

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#139733: Sep 22nd 2016 at 9:10:06 PM

I may not be Ambar but you are ignoring my arguments against that assertion.

To a degree the ones who are really qualified to judge whether it was worth it are the Iraqis themselves but none of them are here.

Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#139734: Sep 22nd 2016 at 9:12:46 PM

You have produced precisely nothing to back your opinions (given the amount of goalpost moving you've done) up beyond "look it up yourself", string of numbers. I think I for one will take you up on that.

Bill de Blasio disagrees with Trump on "stop and frisk"

Clinton is preparing to factcheck Trump during the debates. Also, an offical use of "triggered" by campaign staff. We did it, Internet!

Michael Steele, former RNC chairman, has referred to Trump's birtherism as "bullshit racism". His words, not mine.

EDIT: Trump Ocean Resort Baja California? Trump Taj Mahal? Do you think that the average American voter even heard of how badly they were doing until he became candidate?

edited 22nd Sep '16 9:16:08 PM by Krieger22

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
940131 Since: Feb, 2014
#139735: Sep 22nd 2016 at 9:20:41 PM

@Ambar Well, Germany wasn't part of the League of Nations, but Poland was an ally of Britain and France. That's a little different then intervening in Ukraine and Syria. Both countries were tied to Russia. Talk to me when they invade Japan.

@Krieger 1) For Christssake. Be more specific.

2) Yes. People have talked about his bankruptcies for years.

edited 22nd Sep '16 9:25:10 PM by 940131

FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#139736: Sep 22nd 2016 at 9:32:04 PM

-munches popcorn-

String of numbers, give it up man. Admit you don't understand foreign affairs and therefore your opinion has no legs.

edited 22nd Sep '16 9:32:21 PM by FFShinra

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#139737: Sep 22nd 2016 at 9:32:58 PM

Twenty years previously, large parts of Poland were a part of Germany and Austria (which had recently been annexed by Germany). That certainly puts it in Germany's "sphere of influence".

And you've dodged. Again. If Hitler was a "legitimate" leader, were they wrong to try and get rid of him?

Talk to me when they invade Japan.

...Did you miss the part of the war where Japan went to war with Britain, France, and the USA? And where the US nuked them so as to not have to invade the country?

I suppose Tojo et al should have been left in power as well, since they were "legitimate", right?

edited 22nd Sep '16 9:36:07 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Bat178 Since: May, 2011
#139738: Sep 22nd 2016 at 9:36:11 PM

[up] Don't forget Australia. Everyone forgets Australia also fought the Japanese in WW 2.

edited 22nd Sep '16 9:39:42 PM by Bat178

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#139739: Sep 22nd 2016 at 9:38:11 PM

[up]So did Canada. But like Australia we did it as part of the British Empire.

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#139740: Sep 22nd 2016 at 9:38:28 PM

I seem to have inadvertently spawned a nickname.

  • steals a handfull of Shinra's popcorn* You're munching popcorn that's related to the popcorn in my cupboard and though kernels of popcorn can't speak they've expressed a desire to have closer ties so I'm invading your bag. *munches*

940131 Since: Feb, 2014
#139741: Sep 22nd 2016 at 9:48:00 PM

@Ambar 1) I did answer your question. Hitler invaded the land of one of their allies. Putin invaded Ukraine. Ukraine was tied to Russia. He also intervened in Syria with the aproval of their legitimate ruler, Bashar al Assad.

2) That's a silly argument. When did Syria, Libya and Iraq attack the United States or their allies?

@Shinra I'm willing to bet that I have much better understanding of the Middle East and Russia than you. Add something of value to the conversation.

edited 22nd Sep '16 9:56:39 PM by 940131

Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#139742: Sep 22nd 2016 at 9:49:15 PM

[up]Citation Needed. You can't show up out of nowhere claiming to be a Foreign Affairs guru in these parts.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
940131 Since: Feb, 2014
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#139744: Sep 22nd 2016 at 10:00:29 PM

I did answer your question. Hitler invaded the land of one of their allies. Putin invaded Ukraine. Ukraine was tied to Russia. He also intervened in Syria with the aproval of their legitimate ruler, Bashar al Assad.

The Ukraine asked for Western assistance. But I guess when you're "tied to Russia" you don't get to do that. And no, you still haven't answered the question. Should Britain et al have tried to depose Hitler, as they wound up doing? According to you, foreign leaders throwing out "legitimate rulers" is unacceptable. So, even if "Poland's an ally" changes things, shouldn't they have just pushed him back inside the German borders and called it a day? Why is deposing Hitler acceptable but deposing Qaddafi isn't?

As for Syria...the US and EU intervened in Libya at the request of groups that were officially recognized by the UN and EU alike. But since those groups weren't the brutal dictator who'd been oppressing the people for years, I guess that doesn't count to you.

What a silly argument. When did Syria, Libya and Iraq attack the United States or their allies?

What the actual Hell are you talking about here? You brought up the USA attacking Japan. Quote: "talk to me when they invade Japan".

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#139745: Sep 22nd 2016 at 10:01:02 PM

Ukraine was tied to Russia. Key word, was. The Crimea is Ukraine's legitimate, internationally recognized territory no mater how many ethnic Russians are there.

You don't get to get away with claiming the dictator's claims are more legitimate than Ukraine's sovereignty.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#139746: Sep 22nd 2016 at 10:01:03 PM

Ukraine was tied to Russia.

Also the US, who had/have an argument to guarantee Ukraine's sovreignty. You can ignore that fact all you like but it's not going away.

I'll be honest I just needed something to say so that I could steal some of Shinra's popcorn. *comences stealing*

edited 22nd Sep '16 10:01:47 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#139747: Sep 22nd 2016 at 10:01:26 PM

@Shinra I'm willing to bet that I have much better understanding of the Middle East and Russia than you. Add something of value to the conversation.

That almost made me burst out laughing at 2AM.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#139749: Sep 22nd 2016 at 10:16:54 PM

That's the one.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#139750: Sep 22nd 2016 at 10:18:34 PM

@ 940131:

That's a silly argument. When did Syria, Libya and Iraq attack the United States or their allies?

I haven't got time to go into detail, but Libya and Iraq certainly did.

Keep Rolling On

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