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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
People like this always want to pretend that the USA is the only danger to world peace, and has always been the only danger to world peace. They want to pretend that the Cold War is entirely on the USA, and that the USSR was not a threat to anyone.
It's madness. The USSR under Stalin was one of the worst state projects in the history of terrible state projects. The man shot 20 million people, give or take a few. His proxies in Eastern Europe, North Korea, et al, shot millions more, and that's not getting into the bodycount Mao wracked up in China. Even after Stalin was gone the Soviet Union never became any sort of benevolent state, and the Communist regimes it supported left millions and even tens of millions of people dead. All you have to do is look at the Khmer Rouge regime in Cambodia, the half million or more slaughtered by Magnistu Haile Mariam in Ethiopia, etc.
The USA did terrible things in the name of fighting Communism. The juntas and strongmen they installed in Indonesia, Pakistan, Iran, Chad, and throughout Central and South America killed tens of thousands, even millions of people. But the USSR played hardball too and in many cases played it even harder. Pick the worst dictatorship the Americans ever backed, and I'll find you a Soviet-supported one that equaled them atrocity for atrocity, and then went a few miles farther.
Putin takes his foreign cues from the old USSR, with a good dose of xenophobic Russian nationalism for good measure. Letting him expand his influence would be an act of both weakness and madness on the part of the USA.
edited 20th Sep '16 10:14:34 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
x6 1) There's nothing wrong with being a libertarian and they don't really like Trump. They originally supported Rand Paul (and supported Ron Paul in 2012 and 2008) and only switched to Trump after he dropped out. Rand and Ron Paul are libertarians, but Trump has an authoritarian streak. They're just against war and some times Trump says non-interventionist things.
2) She says she wants a no fly zone in Syria. Russian planes are flying in Syria. What happens. She has a record. Check the record. Kosovo, Iraq, Libya, NATO expansion. In one of her speeches, She condemned Putin for moving troops within Russias borders. She called it NATO's doorstep, but it's Russia's doorstep. There used to be buffer states between NATO and Russia, but now they're gone.
3) Certainly crimes have been committed. They turned a wedding into a funeral.
4) Yes. Crimean Russians were happy to be part of Russia again.
5) No. It is relevant and you're dodge the question. If Cuba wanted Russian bases in their country would the US consider it provocative? I think they would and they'd be right to. The same applies to the US when it moves NATO to the Russian border, surrounds Iran on both sides and pushes in to the South China Sea.
6) But the US is still doing it. They have no right to intervene in Syria, but a President Hillary definitely will and a President Trump would consider it. These wars aren't in the interests of the United States and it's certainly not in the interests of their victims.
x5 1) And I'm not a fan of Russian intervention in Eastern Europe. I'm saying that expanding NATO to Russia's borders was dangerous and so is intervening in Ukraine.
2) https://consortiumnews.com/2016/03/18/behind-the-crimearussia-reunion/
- Ray Mc Govern
http://original.antiwar.com/giraldi/2014/03/17/simple-stuff-about-ukraine/
- Philip Giraldi
- Michael Scheueur
edited 20th Sep '16 10:42:13 PM by 940131
There's lots wrong with being libertarian, since they're the party and ideology of "I've got mine, screw everyone else."
And if she gets her no-fly zone the Russians will respect it or they will lose a few planes. And when they do lose some planes they will whine, and cry, and bitch, and moan, and then they will accept it as the cost of doing business.
The American intervention in Kosovo halted a replay of Serbia's genocidal campaign in Bosnia. If you think that was a bad thing, I don't really know that I have anything more to say to you.
edited 20th Sep '16 10:21:13 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
@Elle I've seen those names before when I was involved in debunking conspiracy theories, they get thrown a lot when it comes to ZOGnote and libertarian conspiracies about the NWO note , they also show up on Russia Today when they need an Anti-NATO opinion with a speck of legitimacy because their former credentials.
Inter arma enim silent legesGiven that this guy thinks Russia is a benevolent power and the USA pure evil, why am I not surprised he's hanging around with conspiracy theorists?
In any case there are things you don't do in this thread, generally speaking, and voicing support for dictatorships is one of them. We were all pretty aghast by that guy who tried to argue in Pinochet's defense. Now we've got a guy defending Putin and Assad. Frankly I think his statements should be treated exactly the same way those of the Pinochet-defender were.
edited 20th Sep '16 10:24:49 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
We sit down and talk to the Russians to work one out together, you know, like we've done, now the current zone is far from universal and has big flaws but with some good diplomacy it could work.
So that's one count of working with the Russians to help people who asked for help, one count of being lied to, one count of helping people who ask for help with the approval of the Russians and one final count of respecting democracy even when it pisses off the Russians.
I fail to see the problem.
edited 20th Sep '16 10:29:32 PM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranIt's only a problem if you think standing up to Russian aggression is a bad thing. Frankly between the defense of Putin and now Assad I can't help but be curious who he's going to defend next. Maybe he'll tell us all about what a wonderful humanitarian Slobodan Milosevic was.
edited 20th Sep '16 10:27:34 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Not even that, it's only a problem if you view democracies disagreeing with you as something that makes them illegitimate while dictatorships that agree with you are legitimate.
The guy couldn't sound more like a Regan supporter if he tried.
edited 20th Sep '16 10:28:48 PM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranThis guy doesn't even sound particularly coherent to me, jumping from one thing to another like he does.
Hey, 9-string of numbers; even if you think we'll "dismiss proof out of hand" you should still provide whatever it is you think is proof. If you do that, we might actually start to understand where you're coming from. You might actually have a point! But yeah, skeptics here are also going to take a good look at your evidence and decide for themselves if they agree with it. It's kind of annoying to just see you spouting claims without any attempts to back up your claims.
Edit: In response to a complaint by Xopher some pages ago about the Standing Rock Sioux's protest about the pipeline not being talked about: It's not on MSNBC news tonight. Apparently a rep spoke up in front of the UN in Switzerland.
edited 20th Sep '16 10:45:23 PM by AceofSpades
@Silasw 1) I'm sure the Iraqis are grateful for America forcing democracy on them.
2) http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2015/12/hillary-clintons-insane-plan-for-a-no-fly-zone.html
Salon's left wing by the way.
@Ambar You're statements on Hillary's no fly zone make you sound like Chris Christie.
edited 20th Sep '16 11:33:52 PM by 940131
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Ask the Kurds. Also, it doesn't matter if you think that Saloon is left wing, Saloon is a staple of bad journalism and more often than not publish sensationalist articles and that is one of them.
Yes there is, the whole movement is filled with isolationists, racists and people who'd rather downsize the US government until it is effectively powerless.
I'd like to see where you took those things she said about troop movement and calling Russian borders NATO's doorstep because I can't find anything on it.
3) Certainly crimes have been committed. They turned a wedding into a funeral.
Yes, the US could did saw it as a provocation during the Crisis. On the same vein those countries near China and Russia see their expansionist strides as a threat and make alliances with other powers in order to preserve their own security. Unfortunately for China and Russia, there aren't many other countries that willing to join them.
No more than Russia has the right to keep Assad in power by bailing him out.
Sure sure sure, letting a dictator run amok bombing its own people creating a massive mess in the region and letting a terrorist organization grow out of control is surely on everyone's interest right?
edited 20th Sep '16 10:58:53 PM by AngelusNox
Inter arma enim silent legesGonna come out and just say Russia isn't pure evil, nor is the US position on Ukraine as helpful as the rhetoric makes it around here. One has to pick their battles.
That said, that doesn't mean you fight zero battles at all. The idea that the US is pure evil and Putin is always right is utterly laughable.
x 1) Libertarianism is about freedom and peace. I'm not a libertarian, but I'd love for you to explain why libertarianism is racist. And again, isolationism and non-interventionism are not the same thing. Isolationism is cutting off all or most communications with the outside world. Non-interventionists want to continue to trade and talk to other countries, but avoid war unles it's absolutely necessary.
2) How is Iraq on the Bush family? George W. Bush is responsible for the war, but he's not alone. Hillary supported thst war. She voted for it. Then she pushed for Libya. Libya wasn't syable after Gaddafi was removed from power. It was torn by Civil War.
3) Sorry. She was talking about Russia's intervention in Ukraine. But again, Ulraone is on Russia's doorstep. NATO shouldn't be there. Supposedly, NATO's purpose is to protect America's European allies from Russia. How does expanding to Russia's border make the US' NATO Allies before the end of the Cold War more safe?
4) Russia commits war crimes. When did I say otherwise?
5) No. I'm saying that Russians in Crimea were happy to be part of Russia again. I don't even need to provide an article. It was widely reported. Do a quick google search and you'll see it. Russians were the majority and they wanted ne part of Russia.
6) Today, the US is probably the most agressive country in the world. The last major war China fought that I can remember was against Vietnam in the 70's. How many wars has the US fought since Bush became President?
7) No. Assad is the recognized leader of Syria. He wants Russian intervention. He doesn't want American intervention. Therefore, America intervening in Syria would be a violation of their sovereignty unless they go through the proper channels.
8) Again, the US is allied to some very viscious regimes. Assad is condemned for using chemical weapons and rightfully so, but who said a word when Israel used White Phosphorus on the Palestinians?
edited 20th Sep '16 11:16:36 PM by 940131
They're not saying Libertarianism requires racism or anything to that effect, but that many Libertarians may display signs of racism.
Also, don't pretend Clinton is at fault to the same degree that Bush is. Bush has executive order, veto power, all that. Clinton was a state senator. She didn't get those benefits, she didn't have as much control over what the outcome of decisions was.
Well, of course Russians in Crimea would mostly prefer to return to Russia. It's not as if the amount of citizens of Russia who opposed the current climate all flocked to Crimea.
We're the most aggressive country? What about a large portion of the Middle East, specifically those involved in the Syrian Civil War?
edited 20th Sep '16 11:21:24 PM by golgothasArisen
"If you spend all your heart / On something that has died / You are not alive and that can't be a life"
1) Where did I say she's just as responsible as Bush?
2) Which country in the Middle East? Honestly, the most agressive country in the Middle East is probably America's ally, Israel although I can understand why they'd be concerned about potential threats to their national security. The US is more agressive than Russia and China. It's just a fact. It's not good for America or the world.
edited 20th Sep '16 11:28:24 PM by 940131
@ 940131:
How about the Kuwaitis (the then-Soviets supported The Gulf War toonote )?
Not as left-wing as The Morning Star.
Keep Rolling OnYou're kidding right? Do you have any idea of the things the US libertarians have been spouting? So what the libertarian ideals are about love and liberty? The people who push for their libertarian agenda aren't interested in those things.
Also the US libertarians are isolationists and for them the rest of the world could burn to cinders and they wouldn't care.
Hillary was one of the almost a hundred senators who voted for the Iraq war and on bad info everyone else had access to, don't try to paint it like she was the co-author of the Iraq war.
Oh for the record, Ghadaffi started bombing his own people after they asked for democratic elections, which then turned into a civil war in which EU powers and the US intervened after request by the Libyans themselves. The other option would be ignoring the civil war and letting Ghadaffi bomb everyone as he please,. Compared to Syria, Libya is pretty damn stable and it is in a better shape than it would be if the US and EU opted out of intervening.
And NATO wasn't there until Russia decided to invade Ukraine, Ukraine was distancing itself from Russia and getting politically and economically closer to the EU. Also one of the requirements to join NATO is not to be currently engaged in any declared conflict.
I don't know maybe by ensuring those same allies don't get invaded by Russia? Because you know Poland and Turkey are US allies.
When you act like it is a justification for Russians to commit war crimes because the US did.
So what? I still isn't a justification Russia to seize Crimea using a fraudulent referendum and disregard the whole Ukrainian political process.
Probably because the Chinese Communist Party still too busy oppressing its own population to keep control of the country and because they can't get anywhere outside Chine without getting whacked since the majority of the Asian countries is part of a defensive pact or alliance.
If he really was, there wouldn't be a civil war to begin with and he wouldn't need to respond request for open elections with bombs.
First, WP isn't considered a chemical weapon but as an incendiary weapon. Second unless you were buried under a rock, pretty much everyone condemned Israel for using WP in population dense areas, including the US administration under Obama.
edited 20th Sep '16 11:46:11 PM by AngelusNox
Inter arma enim silent legesI don't actually think they give a shit about the democracy, they are rather rightly pissed about the US basically setting the country on fire then running away with as much oil as could be grabbed, but that's separate from democracy.
I'm just gonna chime in here and say that there is evidence to suggest the majority of the people in Crimea support the annexation, now that doesn't make doing the annexation via invasion and rigged refurendum right, but let's not pretend that there aren't a lot of people in Crimea who support Russia. The same way the West didn't conjure anti-Russia sentiment in the Ukraine out of thin air the Russians didn't conjure pro-Russian sentiment in Crimea and East Ukraine out of thin air.
Oh please, if you look at what Libertarians actually do and say you'll see that it's about pulling up the ladder behind oneself, it's an ideology built upon "fuck you got mine" with a forign police that simply directs that statement at the rest of the world, the US is safe so who cares if other countries burn?
Because Bush lied about Iraq, he and his team lied to Clinton and the nation, now if you want to hold Clinton's gullibility against her I wouldn't blame you. As for Libya, you do realise that Libya was unstable before Gaddafi was overthrown right? The country was in the middle of a horrific civil war when the West got involved.
Wars of aggression? One, the invasion of Iraq.
Him being the recognised leader doesn't make his rulership in any way legitimate or morally right.
And we shit on it for that all the time. You're the only person in this thread who thinks that allying with brutal dictatorships is a good thing.
Sadly none of us are in charge of US forign policy, or the US would be allied with a lot less horrible regimes.
Now if you'd like to actually debate us instead of a forign policy that we're not defending that would be great...
edited 20th Sep '16 11:47:46 PM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

Nice to know that you feel comfortable telling the Syrian people who is and is not their legitimate ruler, how very benevolent of you to not want to bother the poor savages with complications like democracy.
Ahh the good old "their democracy doesn't count unless it agrees with me and my geopolitical interests" trope, a staple of both the imperialist left and right. I'm sure you'd get along with Ronald Reagan fine.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran