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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
This is wrong on a bunch of fundemental levels.
First Libya is not destroyed, it's not even in an active civil war anymore, it's in a state of truce between the two main power blocks who are slowly working towards a power sharing agreement via the UN. Yes ISIS has a small presence but it's a small one.
As for Syria and Assad, you realise that Libya is better than Syria right? As in its more stable, has less ISIS, has produced far less refugees and is generally a nicer place for people to be. Why is the idea of Syria becoming like Libya a bad one? Syria is what happens when we don't intervene, Libya is what happens when we do intervene but don't stick the landing, if you'd like to see eye what happens when we intervene and stick the landing look at Kosovo and East Timor, both calm and stable countries.
Assad, Saddam and Gadaffi causing stability is bullshit, they and the others like them are why the Arab Spring happened, they caused the instability that lead to ISIS. Hell Assad actually let many people who are part of ISIS out of jail deliberatly so as to make the opposition Islamist instead of secular, Saddam's former inner circle form a key part of ISIS and the violent repression of any kind of religiousness by 'secular' dictators is why so many previously calm people have become radicalised.
As for Syria, Libya and Iraq being breeding grounds for ISIS, yes but not because of a lack of secularism, it's because violent secularism causes an inevitable bashlash and the sectarianism of the Sunni-Shina-Kurdish split in Syria and Iraq combined all non-ISIS opposition facing more pressure than ISIS means that ISIS quickly looked like an attractive avenue for non religious-fanatics seeking to fight against dictatorship.
Do you know the countries that have little trouble with ISIS in the Arab World? That don't even see a flow of radicals or radical preachers to war zones? The ones with freedom of religon, a level of democracy, a lack of sectarianism and no batshit crazy authoritarianism, that's Jordan and Kuwait as the prime examples. Following that you have the monarchical dictators who are ar least competent about their brutal crackdowns (though the existence of brutal crackdowns does lead to a level of religious fanaticism), but the secular presidents? They're not just evil, they're fucking incompetent.
edited 19th Sep '16 3:06:50 PM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranI suspect that Trump would fire any doctor who doesn't tell him what he wants to hear.
It reminds me of that one episode of M*A*S*H, where some General wants Hawkeye for his personal physician. Hawkeye tells him flat-out: "You drink too much, you smoke too much, you're overweight, your blood pressure is sky-high, and if you don't start taking care of yourself right now, you'll wind up dead of a stroke within six months." Needless to say, Hawk did not get the cushy job (not that he wanted it in the first place...)
This Space Intentionally Left Blank.@Fighteer When did I say her getting sick meant she was unfit to be President? I said she's human, she got sick and it's not a big deal, but that she should have been honest about it because covering up hurts her. If you look at the polls, a lot of Americans trust her less than Trump and he lies all the time. She has transparency issues and it was a bad move politically.
@Silasw 1) Your statement that fighting has stopped in Syria is just plain wrong. As for it being destroyed... that depends on how you define the word. Business activity has dropped, oild revenues dropped 90%, the country is factionalized, thousands of people are dead and nearly a third of what was Libya are refugees. You can disagree, but to me Libya looks destroyed. Iraq was destroyed too. It looks like Syria's next. I don't know if these countries will ever get back together. I think that it's tragic.
2) Whether it's better or not is debatable. Better for who? The people in power or the lower class. Yes. Lybia has produced less reffugees, but that's partly because it has significantly less people. Some of the numbers I've seen indicate that a third of Libya's population have left the country.
3) Are you American, Silasw? The American founding fathers were very prescient. They were wise. They said that America should avoid going to war unless their country was attacked. Sometimes interventions work out like in the World Wars, but I think the record shows that most of the time it doesn't. Plus, it's hypocritical. Why not save Yemen from Saudi Arabia if we care so much?
4) The best way to evaluate whether a policy has been successful is to ask the question, "has it made things better or has it made things worse". Objectively, Libya and Iraq are failed states. Most poeple in America agree that the Invasion of Iraq was a blunder. Now they want to overthrow Assad. Third times the charm?
edited 19th Sep '16 4:19:51 PM by 940131
@Handle: You're kind of assuming they built them leaky to start with, which is highly unlikely. The problem is that often these things aren't maintained up to a standard to keep preventing leaks. At least that's part of the problem anyway. Another part of the problem is continual cutting of corners, and quite frankly all the disturbances caused by digging up the land to place the pipes.
@Xopher, maybe refrain from assuming the worst, dude. There's lots of local news stories that don't get reported nationally, no matter how important they are. That it was reported on at all means it is, in fact, being talked about. (And I'd heard about this sometime last week.) Right now we're just kind of focused on the elections, which is a big huge event. Your stated reasons that she should have are frankly petty.
Anyway, this is over quite yet; the ruling just gives the court more time to make a decision. A decision that may not fall in the Sioux's favor.
Quite frankly I find the idea that any politician has to tell us about every little thing like being a little under the weather to be a waste of my fucking time, and kind of an insult to the politicians. Not telling us she was a bit sick is not a cover up, and has nothing to do with the reasons I or anyone else should be voting for her.
edited 19th Sep '16 3:53:12 PM by AceofSpades
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This "covering up" was a day. Most of which was probably taken up trying to work out what the damage to her system had been. Before that, finding out if cold/'flu/pneumonia is a bit tricky and involves lab work to be decisive. <_< Nobody's going to publish "I might have a cold or something, but need to wait for the results to be entirely sure".
It sounds like fishing for sympathy when one has a papercut.
Woo.
edited 19th Sep '16 3:55:52 PM by Euodiachloris
I never said that, I said that fighting (well fighting between the two main factions) has stopped (at least by and large) in Libya, I said nothing about fighting in Syria.
I never said things were good, but they're better than they would have been if we'd done nothing, I'd be curious as to a source on that one third are refugees, assuming that's that's international refugees and not counting the internal to displaced.
For the people of the country, I mean it's also better for the international community as its having a far less destabilising effect on the world, but the international communities opinion isn't realy the one I value the most here.
Also saying it's debatable means nothing, if you'd like to actually provide an argument for it being as bad as Syria I'm listening, but you need an actual argument, evolution is debatable, that doesn't mean all arguments against it aren't stupid.
As for Libya producing less refugees, I'm not talking raw numbers, less Libyan are refugees than Syrians are, that's percentage based, not raw numbers based.
Not American no, I don't actually care what the American founding fathers thought, ignoring the fact that from my perspective they were treasonous local nobles who stared a rebellion rather than pay for a war to defend them, they lived in a different time and international politics has changed dramatically since their time and as such their opinions are no longer valid.
Really? Because I don't grant that premis, it actually works out pretty well rather often, or when it fails to fails due to a lack of commitment rather than anything else. The numbers game doesn't even matter, as well done interventions works all the time they're done (as they are well done) and that's what I am backing, not half arsed wars of aggression masquerading as an intervention.
Hell if you'd like to play the numbers game lets, Sierra Leone, East Timor, Kosovo, Bosnia, Mali, Ivory Coast, the African Union in Somalia and many more. What's your list of failures and how does it compare? Especially when we add in the times we chose not to intend and everything went to shit anyway (Syria and Rwanda being two prime examples).
So is all international diplomacy, glad you caught up.
From a moral perspective and a personal one I find that a dam good question. Now I could tell you why the US won't, but that's on the US goverment, not me.
A failure to previously do a good thing is not an excuse to never do good things, if anything it's a reason to so so as to try and make up for ones mistakes.
Libya is certainly a state in disaster but no it's not objectively a failed state, there is no objective criteria for what determines a failed state and much of the developing world actually resents the developed world for arbitrarily categories their countries as failed.
Yes Iraq and Syria are probably never going to function again as the state's they were, but considering that said states were simply artificial creations of colonialism that may not be a bad thing.
Yes the invasion of Iraq was wrong, it was also not an intervention, as for Syria, no I'm not calling for another Iraq, I'll take another Bosnia/Kosovo please.
edited 19th Sep '16 4:42:39 PM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
“I don’t know why they are saying this,” Clinton told Kimmel on Monday night.
“I think on the one hand it’s part of the wacky strategy … on the other hand it absolutely makes no sense. And I don’t go around questioning Donald Trump’s health. I mean, as far as I can tell he’s healthy as a horse.”
Yes. There was a cover up. She dismissed right wingers questioning her health. Maybe it was, but it turns out that they were right.
As for the media not asking for Trumps records? What sows are you watching. People in the media bring it up all the time. Bill Maher asked for Julian Assange to hack into Trumps tax returns. Fox doesn't criticize him as much or tend to focus on Hillary. But Greenwalds right. The mainstream media is almost uninanimously united against Trump. I understand why they would be. There are a lot of dangers in a possible Trump presedency. But lets not pretend that they're in the tank for Trump. They hate him.
@Silasw 1) I meant Libya. There is still fighting in Libya. 5 years later. Obama said it was one of his worst mistakes and they didn't have a plan in place for after the removal of Gaddafi.
2) We're going to have to agree to disagree. I think Iraq and Libya were better off under secular strongmen.
3) The US and it's Allies are destabilizing the world. Not Libya. There's been a spike in Islamaphobia since the refugee crisis began. Refugees are fleeing the middle East because of Radical Islamic groups. Groups like Isil rose in the wake of Bush's invasion of Iraq. Is the US entirely responsible? No. But America's hands aren't clean. You said you're British. Didn't the Leave campaign use fear of muslim migrants to galvanize public oppinion against the European Union?
4) What percentages are you using for Lybia and Syria?
edited 19th Sep '16 5:04:35 PM by 940131
Because he's good for ratings and they want to use him to shape the narrative. For example, a while ago Trump posted an image on twitter calling Israel corrupt and the image had a star. The mainstream news outlets came out and condemned him for anti-semetism. They thought the star was the star of David. The problem? Newt Gingrich explained it at the time. Trumps family is Jewish. At least a lot of it is. His son-in-law is Jewish. His grand children are Jewish. His daughter converted to Judaism and it's not like he cut her out of his life. So if he hates Jewish people... does he hate his son-in-law, his daughter and grandchildren? They left that part out. Fox is biased in favor of Trump, but most mainstream networks are against him.
edited 19th Sep '16 4:56:29 PM by 940131
Bull. Trump has eagerly embraced the Neo-Nazi, Holocaust-denying alt-right. He knows it and they know it. The use of Stars of David and other similar symbology is a dog whistle intended to encourage them. This is blatant and undeniable except for the apologists who have a vested interest in pretending he's a "normal" candidate.
This isn't a conspiracy theory; it's brazen and open. He's not even trying to hide it; he counts on the media doing it for him by maintaining the polite fiction that it's something innocuous. So yes, there is a media bias, and it's so far in favor of Trump that it's not even funny.
edited 19th Sep '16 5:05:09 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"And they hate Jews with a fiery passion. Boomerang Bigot is a thing. His son has attended Neo-Nazi propaganda events, then pretended he "didn't know" what they were. Trump himself has denied knowing David Duke when they've been friends for years.
Trump may be too ignorant to know what he's doing. But the deplorables who are coming out of the woodwork in response to his dog whistles aren't.
edited 19th Sep '16 5:07:46 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"@Fighteer Jesus Christ. Sorry. I didn't know his son went to Neo-Nazi events. Why isn't the media talking about this? Do you have more information? I'm pretty sure Trump has never been friends with David Duke though. In fact, one of the reasons he didn't run for President on the Reform Parties ticket was because David Duke was part of it.
edited 19th Sep '16 5:38:17 PM by 940131
Possibly, or more likely Trump is not personally anti-Semitic but is simply try to pander or anti-Semitic voters by pretending to be anti-Semitic and using anti-Semitic dog whistles.
The fact that Trump has Jewish family doesn't mean he can't be either anti-Semitic or willing to send out anti-Semitic messages. He might regard his son in law as "one of the good ones", he might hate his son in law, he might simply be willing to be anti-Semitic if it gets him votes from anti-Semitic people, he might even admire Jewish people while being anti-Semitic and seeing them as money grubbers.
Personally I'd bank on the last two, but the first two aren't impossible.
But back to your main point.
Exactly and do you know what network TV loves? Ratings and the things that bring them in, they love Trump because he brings in the views, it's why they've been fighting so hard to make this race a close one instead of a slam dunk it should have been for Clinton.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranRace baiting has long been a tactic of rightwingers. And not only in America. Reagan fearmongered about welfare queens and Nixon ran the Southern Strategy. That's one of the reasons I'm to the left.
If Hitler had a child? Would he let them marry Jewish people? Trumps terrible in a lot of ways, but when he has so many Jewish friends, and half of his family are Jewish it makes it hard for me to believe he's personally anti-semitic.
edited 19th Sep '16 5:43:31 PM by 940131
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Even being pretty damn far from there here in South America, reading those comments sends a huge chill down my spine and the thought that the racist and Anti-Semite alt right getting any sort of political legitimacy is downright terrifying.
edited 19th Sep '16 5:26:19 PM by AngelusNox
Inter arma enim silent leges@Fighteer But that Trump is married to a Jewish woman. Did he know the guy he talked to was a real anti-semite? I mean, Doanld Trump is friends with Larry King. Larry King is Jewish. Larry seems to believe Trump isn't racist because he's known him for so long. The same thing is true of Geraldo Riviera. I don't know that I'd go that far, but it seems hard to believe that Trump is an anti-semite. He has lots of Jewish friends, many of the people in his family are Jewish.
For the record, I agree that Trump is appealing to racists and doing it on purpose. He pretended to not know about the Ku Klux Klan. Anyone who was that ignorant of American history has no business running for President. And he's on record multiple times talking about David Duke.
edited 19th Sep '16 5:33:36 PM by 940131
Sorry but catering and empowering Anti-Semites makes you an Anti-Semite by association.
There is no fucking excuse for giving those people power and a spot light and then claiming you didn't know their racist beliefs or you don't harbor ill will against Jewish people while gathering support from people who'd rather see them dead.
Inter arma enim silent leges

She had coughing fits and collapsed because she contracted walking pneumonia and refused her doctor's advice to rest and stay hydrated. This isn't a conspiracy, nor is it evidence of any general lack of fitness. It can happen to anybody.
edited 19th Sep '16 3:04:36 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"