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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#138751: Sep 15th 2016 at 6:28:50 PM

So, what, equally divide the pie between the rest of the world, and no one might get hungrier for an extra slice?

Is that right?

New Survey coming this weekend!
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#138752: Sep 15th 2016 at 6:30:00 PM

[up] When taking an extra slice entails mutual collapse, yes.

edited 15th Sep '16 6:30:46 PM by CaptainCapsase

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#138753: Sep 15th 2016 at 6:30:13 PM

[up][up][up][up][up]Having economic and political freedom are correlated with freer democracies, not prosperity in itself.

Also, while the US might not be directly endangered by China and Russia there are plenty of US allies and client states that are, there is a reason why the ASEAN directly asked the US for support when China began expanding in the South China Sea and the ex-sov block republics also asked for more direct US and NATO support when Russia started rebuilding their military.

edited 15th Sep '16 6:30:42 PM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#138754: Sep 15th 2016 at 6:30:21 PM

But again, you have never advocated for a strong, stable multi-polar world, just one with a weaker US and stronger Russia and China.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#138755: Sep 15th 2016 at 6:34:01 PM

[up] Your view seems to be that Russia and China must be under US domination for a stable world order. Mine is "that isn't feasible, we need to learn to live with them." I'd also like a stable EU and a more powerful India to accompany that, though neither is particularly likely.

[up][up] How's that different from the US continually expanding NATO eastwards despite agreeing not to via Rules Lawyering (which is how we got to the present crisis)? As for China, can you even imagine what the US would do if another power was mucking around in the Caribbean. Oh wait, we don't have to imagine, we and the Soviets very nearly destroyed the world over it.

edited 15th Sep '16 6:37:20 PM by CaptainCapsase

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#138756: Sep 15th 2016 at 6:34:43 PM

[up][up][up][up]Capase I pointed this out before but what you're entailing pretty much is the Cold War only several dozen nations have nukes instead of just two. What do you propose we do when one of those nations is stupid enough to elect an idiot like Trump? Realistically that's going to happen eventually.

edited 15th Sep '16 6:35:11 PM by Kostya

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#138757: Sep 15th 2016 at 6:35:56 PM

[up][up][up]I am always at odds among my South American peers when it comes to the US losing influence or losing its stage as the main global actor and the main reason of that is that most of them think that Russia and China taking over the US as the main global powers wouldn't be worse than the US remaining as the main supper power.

Again we're bombarded with news about the US screwing up while China and Russia screw ups hardly get into the news.

[up][up]Simple, those countries requested the US for assistance despite the Kremlin acting like the Ex Soviet Republics are still their backyard, and those countries both in Eastern Europe and Asia requested the US assistance because the other global powers near their borders make them increasingly nervous. Which is very different since most of the Ex Soviet republics didn't have much of a choice when they got annexed into the Soviet Union and after the end of WWII and they don't want to go back to the Kremlin's sphere of influence and there was no love between the other Asian Nations and China even before the US got involved.

Which prompted them to seek an actor strong enough to block any expansionist attempts. Like Georgia and Ukraine or the Chinese invasion of Vietnam. I said it once and I will say it again: Russia is the best NATO recruiter the US has. China is making sure former US enemies become new allies.

You can blame the US all you want but when the other global powers are pushing their neighbors towards the US sphere of influence they have none but themselves to blame.

edited 15th Sep '16 6:47:39 PM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#138758: Sep 15th 2016 at 6:36:20 PM

[up][up] That's only the case if globalization is halted somehow. The current state of affairs already makes direct confrontation untenable between great powers, and that trend will only continue with time. By the time this hypothetical state of affairs were to be realized, the backlash against globalization would already be settled one way or another.

But enough about the current global order and our disagreements about it. 538's projection now has Trump winning North Carolina, Iowa, Ohio, and Florida. If he can get one more semi-big state on top of that, he's in the lead.

edited 15th Sep '16 6:56:19 PM by CaptainCapsase

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#138759: Sep 15th 2016 at 6:55:59 PM

That's almost like saying a stable world has to include Saudi Arabia and Iran, since they control a large swath of the world's oil despite being so authoritarian and so repressive that not even women would want to go to those countries.

What the hell is that supposed to mean? Not even women would want to go to two of the most misogynistic countries in the world? No, they probably wouldn't. This some kind of "hur hur, not even women are dumb enough to go to a place that treats them like that" comment? Or is it a really bad typo?

Your view seems to be that Russia and China must be under US domination for a stable world order.

I vastly prefer a Russia and China struggling to get out from under American hegemony to a Russia and China free to do whatever they want to whomever they want.

You can go on all you want about America's track record of overthrowing democracies, but the reality is they haven't done it since the Reagan administration, while Russia and China continue to pose a direct threat to every democracy within their sphere of influence.

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#138760: Sep 15th 2016 at 6:59:11 PM

Republicans and the NRA have been attacking the Democratic candidate for the Missouri senate seat as anti-gun. This ad is his response:

For those of you who can't see it; Democratic candidate and former Army captain Jason Kander is putting together an AR-15 rifle while blindfolded, all the while touting his military experience, explaining his support for background checks and at the end challenging his Republicans opponent to do the same.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#138761: Sep 15th 2016 at 7:10:25 PM

You guys have no idea how fucking surreal American politics are to outsiders at times like this.[lol][awesome]

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#138762: Sep 15th 2016 at 7:12:29 PM

Russia and China don't need to be under US control, currently they need to be kept in check and the US is the current best positioned country to do that. I'd much rather India and Japan were keeping China is check than the US, but that's not currently feasible (though with India and Japan building up their military power it may be soon enough), likewise I'd trust the EU more to keep Russia in check than I would the US. Hell I'd like to see the day when USAN is acting to keep the US in check.

The US is not my preferred choice for the role of world or regional policeman, but it's still preferable to the nothing you keep pushing.

[up]X3 I think it's meant to just be that Iran and Saudi Arabia are assholes to women and should thus not be included in the global community, even with their oil wealth. Where the "not even" came form I don't know.

edited 15th Sep '16 7:14:31 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#138763: Sep 15th 2016 at 7:18:22 PM

[up] Then we can agree on something. I don't necessarily think however, that the current course of action by the US is the best in regards to China and Russia.

Mario1995 The Dishonorable from Atlanta Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
The Dishonorable
#138764: Sep 15th 2016 at 7:21:04 PM

Here is a little something about NATO that some may not know about: if it weren't for them, we'd be in an unending nuclear arms race against Russia still.

If the former Soviet states and European nations couldn't rely on NATO to protect them from foreign invasion, what kind of arms would they need to protect themselves from such an invasion? Nuclear arms, especially if, God forbid, the invading country has nukes and are not afraid to use them.

Imagine how many nuclear weapons there would be if NATO never existed during the Cold War and then tell me that they're not needed anymore.

"The devil's got all the good gear. What's God got? The Inspiral Carpets and nuns. Fuck that." - Liam Gallagher
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#138765: Sep 15th 2016 at 7:23:16 PM

How many people are advocating or the disbandment of NATO in this thread? Its generally viewed as a net positive here.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#138766: Sep 15th 2016 at 7:24:04 PM

A stable multipolar world has to include Russia and China for better or worse, they're too big both geographically and population wise not to be part of that order, and as long as the US remains an existential threat to them, there's really no hope of a stable balance of power being achieved.
This is from a few pages back, but I wanted to say that the US isn't an existential thread to either Russia or China. Limiting their influence, especially with respect to our allies in the same region? Absolutely. But destroying them, even in the sense of forcing a regime change? Not a chance in hell. Trying it Iraq style (though military force) would be literally suicidal against a nuclear power, and trying it Cold War third world country style (covert CIA operation supporting a local coup) would never be successful. We're not stupid enough to try either. We certainly wouldn't waste any tears on them should either of their governments happen to collapse under their own weight, but we're not actively trying to undermine them, either (except in the most general sense of opposing their foreign ambitions in the region. And we're not taking a real firm stance on that, either).

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Mario1995 The Dishonorable from Atlanta Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
The Dishonorable
#138767: Sep 15th 2016 at 7:26:10 PM

[up][up]To me, people complaining about America's influence to former Soviet republics seem to equate to wanting to undermine or weaken NATO, something Donald Trump advocates greatly.

"The devil's got all the good gear. What's God got? The Inspiral Carpets and nuns. Fuck that." - Liam Gallagher
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#138768: Sep 15th 2016 at 7:38:41 PM

I dread the day the US loses its comparative power to Russia and China as much as I dread the US becoming like Russia or China.

Which is why I don't want to see someone like Trump nowhere near the White House.

Inter arma enim silent leges
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#138769: Sep 15th 2016 at 7:39:52 PM

Personally, I like the idea of a unipolar world in some senses, but the one pole has to have strong checks and balances - as we've repeatedly seen, the US government cannot be trusted to do the right thing when the lights are off.

BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#138770: Sep 15th 2016 at 7:53:58 PM

I saw a tweet from Hillary in my Twitter feed that said that Troomp once did business with Muhammar Gadhaffi. Is that true?

I heard that Ivanka walked out of an interview because it was too negative. Will this affect anything politically?

He was IIRC, back in the 80s or 90s? Well before 9/11, at any rate. And Ivanka stormed out of a Cosmo interview because they were -"unfair and mean" by bringing up Trump companies' own lack of maternity leave ... as she's trying to hype her dad's plan for making it a nationwide requirement.
538 now has the election projected at 60/40 in Clinton's favor, due to Trump polling ahead in Ohio and Florida after Clinton's shitty weekend.
I just saw something about the polling being super-heavy on the over 50 crowd to skew it towards Trump?

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#138771: Sep 15th 2016 at 8:14:42 PM

[up][up] Under GOP leadership, you mean, let's keep it 100.

New Survey coming this weekend!
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#138772: Sep 15th 2016 at 8:16:15 PM

Democrats aren't spectacular.

So yeah, Trump is not a birther and never was. Oh, and his team was why Obama released his certificates, putting the whole issue to bed. It was also started by the Clinton campaign just because.

...

At least if you believe's Trump's website's angle on it.

edited 15th Sep '16 8:19:36 PM by CaptainCapsase

smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#138773: Sep 15th 2016 at 8:18:01 PM

They're a hell of a lot better than the other option, so I'll gladly vote Dem.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#138774: Sep 15th 2016 at 8:24:24 PM

[up] It's not something to be glad about. There's so much room for improvement.

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#138775: Sep 15th 2016 at 8:25:22 PM

Trump's official spokesman ought to be Tommy Flanagan — card-carrying member of Pathological Liars Anonymous. "Yeah, that's the ticket!"

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.

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