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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
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If you survey a random Clinton supporter, and ask them whether they support one of Trump's policies (but claim it's Clinton's), they'll more likely than not say they do, and the same is true of Trump's supporters.
I'm being descriptive, not prescriptive. It's not a good thing that facts don't matter, and elections are won by personality (and image) over policy.
edited 13th Sep '16 8:02:33 AM by CaptainCapsase
Uh huh. Citation needed.
Actually, never mind. I believe you: we've become utterly ignorant as a society. Worshipful of it, even. But I'm not going to throw in the towel as long as I have a voice and a vote. That anyone who believes in policy over style would consider not voting for Clinton is an embarrassment.
edited 13th Sep '16 8:03:45 AM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Here's one example
, in this case Obama's policies being significantly better received by Trump supporters when they're told it's Trump's policies.
I should also add that I'm still voting for Clinton. I don't like her, but I'm voting for her because there is no better option at this time.
edited 13th Sep '16 8:08:47 AM by CaptainCapsase
Well, we know that's the case on the right, but you need some evidence that it also happens in reverse: Clinton supporters viewing Trump's policies favorably when told they are Clinton's.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Once again...Clinton hasn't behaved much differently from other politicians who, again, don't get 1/4 of the same scrutiny.
Her opponent might well have defrauded people with Trump University. His Foundation seems to have bribed at least one Attorney General, and there's a whole controversy with charity misuse that is going under-reported. Who gives a damn if Clinton once lied about ducking her head to avoid snipers in Bosnia? What possible effect does that have right now on anything? Once again, does anyone even bother to scrutinize Joe Biden saying his father was a proud supporter of gay rights when Biden was a child?
Yeah, gonna need to see some support for Clinton supporters wanting to, oh, build a giant wall and ban Muslims. We'll wait.
edited 13th Sep '16 8:06:10 AM by Lightysnake
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Did you look at the poll they did? They got party affiliation and asked whether they supported one of Obama's policies and claimed it was Obama's idea for 50% and Trump's for the other 50%. The drop in support for universal healthcare (the policy in question) wasn't as stark among democrats when it was supposedly Trump's policy as it was for the converse, but it was still a drop of 36% (compared to 28% increase among Republicans) simply because Trump's name was attached to it.
edited 13th Sep '16 8:11:43 AM by CaptainCapsase
I would expect any thinking person to believe that any such policy offered by Trump would be fraud or a poison pill or something. I want to see Democrats supporting deporting Muslims or stripping environmental regulations if told they are Clinton's ideas.
Because, you see, there is not a perfect right-left symmetry. Current Democratic platform positions are, generally, good ideas regardless of politics. Republican platform positions are, generally, awful for everyone, even the people they are notionally for.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"@Lightysnake: That poll shows a similar drop in support for affirmative action among democrat's when it's associated with Trump, the specific question being "[President Obama/Donald Trump] believes that the policy of affirmative action should be kept in place. Do you agree or disagree with [Obama/Trump] about affirmative action?". For that you get a 16% drop in democratic support compared to and 18% boost in GOP support when its associated with Trump. Unfortunately, the border wall question wasn't asked, but I feel affirmative action is close enough.
So, it supports @Fighteer's postulate the Republicans are less policy literate than democrats, but not by that great of a magnitude.
@Fighteer: And you don't see any problem with that line of reasoning? ("The Republicans are wrong no matter what.")
edited 13th Sep '16 8:21:30 AM by CaptainCapsase
I never said they are wrong no matter what. However, they are objectively wrong about almost everything currently, whereas the Democrats are not. Every now and then a Republican says something sane and gets torn down by their own party, so while there is some slight hope of sanity on their end, it's fleeting and desperate. Trump's brand of truth-immune "feels" politics is utterly ascendant.
Meanwhile, the insanity on the Democrats' side is hiding in the Sanders and Stein supporters who insist that some fictionalized media narrative about Clinton's honesty is more important than what she stands for as a politician. If they cause the election to be thrown, so help me...
edited 13th Sep '16 8:24:19 AM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"@blkwhtrbbt: The idea that Libertarians don't believe in government.is an oft-regurgitated and incorrect meme. Libertarians are minarchist, not anarchist, and they want the government pruned back to its proper sphere - police, defense, courts for prosecuting force and fraud. There's a rather large difference between police and no police, for example. That requires government action and government leadership to do.
Actual anarchists generally don't run for political office, they usually tune out of electoral politics entirely - for exactly the reason you stated. If they believed that their objectives could be attained at the ballot box then they wouldn't be anarchists.
I find it amusing that people who insist that Clinton is an unrepresentative liar are more than happy to lie about things like Dem's supporting Trump policies if it's claimed they're Clinton ones, and instead of repenting when called on their lie they try and dodge the question.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranLibertarianism has long had an appeal to college-intellectual types, so mere ignorance is enough to discredit him, which speaks to just how little appeal real libertarianism has. The people who follow it are usually in it for what it provides (weed, hookers, automatic weapons, re-legalized racial discrimination) and not attracted to the ideal in itself, or just the kind of people who think "there has to be a better way, and voting Democrat or Republican hasn't solved our problems, so..." which is that college-intellectual salon crowd.
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I haven't been able to find such a poll, I did find one which did ask that of Obama's policies, and believe it or not, while there was a difference between Republican support for Obama's policies labeled as Trump's versus the converse (democratic support for Trump's policy), it wasn't huge, and if you think there's suddenly going to be a massive difference when it's Clinton versus Trump, I'd say the burden of truth falls on you.
edited 13th Sep '16 8:34:56 AM by CaptainCapsase
So despite asserting that such a poll exists you haven't been able to find one? That sure sounds like you lied to me.
And no the burden of proof does not fall on me to prove your claims bullshit, you're the one making the assertion, so back it up.
edited 13th Sep '16 8:35:25 AM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Would you agree or disagree with the statement that "All things being equal, the support for the policies of one democrat politician should be approximately the same were it supported by another democrat politician."
I am postulating that support for a policy of Obama's should be relatively predictive of support for a policy of Clinton's, since they are both democrats, and since Clinton is running as a continuation of the Obama administration's status quo. If that is taken as true, then a poll on support for Obama's policy positions labeled as Trump's should be predictive of a poll on support for Clinton's policies labeled as Trump's.
edited 13th Sep '16 8:39:33 AM by CaptainCapsase
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I took it to mean that Cap found a poll that offered up dem policies in Trump's name, but not one that did the reverse. That said, I'm curious about seeing this poll for myself now, because I agree that this election has reached the point where policy is secondary to the point of irrelevant.
Thank you.
edited 13th Sep '16 8:40:55 AM by sgamer82
Is this about to become another convoluted thought train where you try and get me to agree with Hitlar or something?
Yes broadly support for Dem policies should be the same regardless of the Dem politican proposing them. At least amongst Democrats. However that has no impact on if Democrats will support Republican policies, which is what you have claimed without any evidence to back you up.
edited 13th Sep '16 8:42:46 AM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranOr possibly Democrats have come to learn that Republican politicians are largely full of BS. Which would, in the current environment, be quite sensible.
Regardless, "one would expect" is not something that'll satisfy your college professor when he asks you for your sources on a research paper.
edited 13th Sep '16 8:49:27 AM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Only if you assume that Democrats are as ignorant and blindly loyal as Republicans are, which Democrats are not.
You might think that Democrats are just as ignorant and blindly loyal as Republicans but so far you've only shown that one poll has them as being roughly as willing to oppose favourable policies based on the identity of the proposer. Being willing to oppose one policy is not the same as being willing to support another policy.
edited 13th Sep '16 8:49:27 AM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran![]()
This isn't a college though, it's an online political discussion, and even having a source in the first place is well above the standards of typical online discourse.
I would assume democrats are as blindly loyal as Republicans until data suggests otherwise. Generally, in statistics, you start from the assumption (the "null hypothesis") that "experimental" group in a study will not differ significantly from the "control" group.
edited 13th Sep '16 8:53:40 AM by CaptainCapsase
When you're asking to be taken seriously you need a source, especially when your assertion comes across as simply you making the same (il)logical leap that you've made before about everyone other than you being blind sheepies doing what the media tells them to do.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

The media are blatantly biased in favor of Trump.
edited 13th Sep '16 8:05:19 AM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"