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Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#137601: Sep 7th 2016 at 3:49:32 PM

[up][up]Ohhhhh, okay. Yeah, "authoritarianism" usually strikes me as something that gets championed by those who rather hate dissent of any kind. Thanks for the context.

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#137602: Sep 7th 2016 at 3:50:31 PM

Hillary's getting flak from the right for a charity that nobody can prove is doing anything wrong (and is in fact rated extremely highly by the best-known charity watchdogs) and an email scandal in which she was absolved of wrongdoing on multiple fronts. If she's suffering slightly in the polls just for that, what do you think the right would do with Bernie, the self-avowed socialist and agnostic. Like, the Republican Bernie talking points write themselves. As a political opponent, Bernie's like a Republican's wet dream.

New Survey coming this weekend!
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#137603: Sep 7th 2016 at 4:01:42 PM

"everyone is sheepie and none of us have original thoughts"

Well, I don't know about "sheeple", that's a bit of an overstatement. No massive bleating of FOUR LEGS GOOD TWO LEGS BETTER here, but let me put it this way. Few of us are high-level experts; we're not academics, researchers, campaign managers, journalists, or otherwise at the cutting edge of either information suppy or idea creation. At best, we brood what we've been taught in school, and what we get from the press and other media, and anecdotal experience.

I know for a fact that I had no original thoughts about Clinton, mainly because I knew very little about her, and all I knew was second hand. When everyone had disliked her, I disliked her. When all that effort got spent into humanising her at the convention, I bought into it. I never realized I was doing either until it was pointed out to me. For which I feel ashamed and embarassed.

This isn't the first time it happens to me. While I like to think that maybe I'm giving myself too much credit, at the moment, I believe that this is more common than just me.

We're not sheeple. We do try, and we do care. But let's not overestimate our intellectual agency and integrity, either. As for discussion between us, it's only useful if people are open to changing their minds about things they care about. I know I am. I can't speak for others.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#137604: Sep 7th 2016 at 4:05:07 PM

we're not academics,

Speak for yourself, I might have failed my degree but I've still got a diploma in Politics and International Relations, plus years of constant researching and learning to back me up, that's before we get into my personal campaigning expierance and time working as part of political operations.

You may not be confident in your ability to think original thoughts and that's fine, but don't go projecting your insecurities onto the rest of us.

edited 7th Sep '16 4:06:57 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#137605: Sep 7th 2016 at 4:09:24 PM

[up][up][up][up][up][up], [up][up][up][up]

Statism is a more neutral term that I've seen tossed around in reference to the belief that government should have more control over things, be it economic or social.

edited 7th Sep '16 4:10:37 PM by Mio

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#137606: Sep 7th 2016 at 4:11:52 PM

Fine, I'm a statist, social-liberal. Now I'm in a neat bucket that can be argued for or against instead of what I've actually said. evil grin

As for how we acquire knowledge, of course that's trivially true, Handle, but treating it as a cause for absolute despair because none of us can ever access the Real Truth is just defeatist. It is possible to gain reasonably certain knowledge by diligent vetting of sources and seeking out corroboration. Even with that aside, if we're all incapable of seeing past the propaganda even if we choose different propaganda to believe in, that means that engaging in this conversation is pointless. If you believe that to be true, then by all means quit engaging. Let us exchange propaganda in happy ignorance.

edited 7th Sep '16 4:13:25 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#137607: Sep 7th 2016 at 4:13:47 PM

When Handle first made his post I thought he was talking more about this place being an echo chamber where no new or revolutionary ideas come from.

That his main point was that none of us have the critical thinking skills to actually make our own minds up seems more insulting, even if that is something I worry about a bit.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#137608: Sep 7th 2016 at 4:14:39 PM

[up][up][up][up] He did say "few of us".

edited 7th Sep '16 4:14:58 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#137609: Sep 7th 2016 at 4:15:20 PM

No one is exempt from having biases or occasionally slipping into groupthink. There's a huge body of psychology and neuroscience backing this up. Confirmation bias is one of the big ones. The only antidote is rigorous skepticisim and regular, rigorous self-examination, and even someone who thinks they're good at it is going to falter sometimes.

edited 7th Sep '16 4:18:57 PM by Elle

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#137610: Sep 7th 2016 at 4:20:11 PM

@Fighteer:, You're rather quick to try and silence me, aren't you? If it's not the mod stick, it's my own "despair". That's a funny way of spelling "concern" or "discomfort" , by the way.

@Silas: I did say "few of us", but fair enough. However, can you guarantee that you aren't perpetuating your sources' and teachers' biases? What about stuff you didn't study? Is the ability to write papers for a grade equivalent to creating original opinions from first hand knowledge?

edited 7th Sep '16 4:21:39 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#137611: Sep 7th 2016 at 4:23:21 PM

This was a sentiment I expressed earlier that was met with very serious backlash. A big part of it had to do with the analogy I was using (and while I'm sorry for being rather insensitive about it, I don' think I was necessarily incorrect, just undiplomatic), but I think part of it was the fact that people really don't like to examine deeply held beliefs, attitudes, and biases (and exposing oneself to opposed perspectives); that kind of introspection is deeply uncomfortable, understandably so, but I maintain that doing so is very necessary avoid developing major biases.

edited 7th Sep '16 4:25:08 PM by CaptainCapsase

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#137612: Sep 7th 2016 at 4:24:57 PM

It shouldn't matter if the opinion is original or not as long as it's well-informed and based upon facts or at least actual experience you've had, even if it leads to confirmation bias or anecdotal evidence. But both are these are at least valid due to having knowledge of the subject.

Shadow?
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#137613: Sep 7th 2016 at 4:26:34 PM

Originality is certainly far less valuable than accuracy.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
TheWanted Since: Oct, 2013
#137614: Sep 7th 2016 at 4:28:07 PM

Reacting to what was said earlier, is it it really a good thing that people associated with Bush are endorsing Hillary? Conservatives I know would say "see, neo-cons sticking together"

edited 7th Sep '16 4:29:24 PM by TheWanted

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#137615: Sep 7th 2016 at 4:30:28 PM

It's hard to say how it's reflected in the general voting population but it's further evidence of Trump alienating moderates.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#137616: Sep 7th 2016 at 4:30:29 PM

@Irene: But what is knowledge? Is it truly something we can achieve through inductive reasoning?

edited 7th Sep '16 4:31:58 PM by CaptainCapsase

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#137617: Sep 7th 2016 at 4:31:20 PM

[up][up][up]They would certainly not be endorsing her if Jeb or Marco Rubio was the Republican candidate.

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#137618: Sep 7th 2016 at 4:32:10 PM

[up][up]That's pretty solidly jumping into stuff that belongs in the philosophy thread, though admittedly we're not super active in it.

edited 7th Sep '16 4:32:21 PM by Elle

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#137619: Sep 7th 2016 at 4:32:39 PM

[up][up] What about in some bizzaro world where Ron Paul wins the nomination though, or as a better thought experiment some hypothetical anti-military Republican who shares virtually all other values with them?

[up] It is, but in the context of the thread I think it's somewhat pertinent considering the discussion about confronting our own biases.

edited 7th Sep '16 4:33:41 PM by CaptainCapsase

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#137620: Sep 7th 2016 at 4:41:34 PM

[up]I think they might accept the hypothetical candidate, but maybe not Ron Paul. I don't see how that is all that relevant unless you are trying to make a point about Hilary's policy agenda, in which case I don't see the endorsements as meaning much.

edited 7th Sep '16 4:42:24 PM by Mio

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#137621: Sep 7th 2016 at 4:41:57 PM

It's still irrelevant to this thread anyway since the whole point was that you should actually argue the other poster's points, and not because they happen to not be the most original opinion ever. And that point is pretty clear anyway, so let's move on.

There was something about Jill Stein?

Shadow?
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#137622: Sep 7th 2016 at 4:44:08 PM

Well for those who want to dive into it deeper, here, Crash Course is doing a pholosophy series, inductive reasoning is covered in episode 3 and the following episodes cover most of the major topics of epistemology.

However, my short, layman's answer? We do the best we can with what we've got. What we've got is flawed but with persistence and rigor I do believe we can approach an increasing understanding of truth. (That said, most people are neither persistent nor rigorous, it's something you have to learn.)

smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#137623: Sep 7th 2016 at 4:44:27 PM

She and her running mate are gonna face charges for trespassing and vandalism after they spray painted "I approve this message" on a bulldozer at the site of a pipeline that is (iirc) being built despite not having the proper legal approval.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#137624: Sep 7th 2016 at 4:45:21 PM

Reacting to what was said earlier, is it it really a good thing that people associated with Bush are endorsing Hillary? Conservatives I know would say "see, neo-cons sticking together"
I doubt it will hurt Clinton, since these guys are less endorsing Clinton and more rejecting Trump.

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#137625: Sep 7th 2016 at 4:48:25 PM

[up][up] Good. That kind of childish vandalism should be punished/stopped. It's a little ridiculous to resort to that when it doesn't take much beyond money and halfway decent acting to make a proper promotional message. You yourself barely have to do much besides having a good picture to show and saying "I am [Name] and I approve this message." Resorting to vandalism is ridiculous and laughable.

Shadow?

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