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In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#137576: Sep 7th 2016 at 2:23:44 PM

@LSBK: Politfact rated "Bernie Sanders says he consistently beats Donald Trump by bigger margins than Hillary Clinton does" as Mostly True back in March.

Given the behaviour you have shown so far, I frankly couldn't care less what you estimate my rationality to be. If you think I, you, or anyone else on this thread, have displayed a shred of original, critical thinking, throughout this debate, you're fooling yourself. We're regurgitating the narratives that our favourite media outlets monger. And they themselves carry out the stories outlined by their allied think tanks and campaign staffs.

It's especially frustrating when an idea or understanding you thought you came up with yourself turns out to have been in someone's campaign strategy weeks before if not earlier.

Another frustrating thing is when people you've grown to trust, who speak with authority and thump facts and statistics, suddenly have their brains switch off when their chosen allegiance is threatened. I've seen it again and again, and I don't have any hopes left to disappoint.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#137577: Sep 7th 2016 at 2:27:15 PM

@Fighteer: I'd also like to add that your particular attitude is more or textbook (classical) conservatism: "what we have is the best of all possible worlds, and it cannot be made any better."

In response I must ask "why?"

edited 7th Sep '16 2:28:01 PM by CaptainCapsase

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#137578: Sep 7th 2016 at 2:29:31 PM

[up][up] I'm tempted to thump that. If you think we're all doomed sheeple and there's no point in debating, then leave.

[up] Uh, no. I'm quite far on the liberal spectrum, although I trend towards the authoritarian side of governance. What I am angry about is the constant insistence that Hillary Clinton somehow represents a right-wing viewpoint. It is a conclusion that could only be reached by having swallowed the media narrative about her hook, line, and sinker, and blatantly ignoring facts.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#137579: Sep 7th 2016 at 2:31:06 PM

[up][up][up]...When did I imply that my, or your opinion, was unique? what you said is partly why I tend not to reply a lot here. But, I guess that gives me free-reign to just completely disregard you from now on if that's your response. I guess the sentiment is mutual, you've never come off as having much of value to say, either.

edited 7th Sep '16 2:34:05 PM by LSBK

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#137580: Sep 7th 2016 at 2:31:43 PM

[up][up] In the modern sense perhaps, but the meanings of both liberal and conservative have become extremely detached from the original ideologies. Libertarians are much closer to classical liberals than modern liberals, and modern liberals are from my point of view much closer to classical conservatives. The GOP of today is a mix of reactionaries and bro-fascists.

edited 7th Sep '16 2:33:24 PM by CaptainCapsase

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#137581: Sep 7th 2016 at 2:34:33 PM

There's nothing wrong with adopting a cautious approach to change. If that's what you mean by "conservative", then sure, label me as that if you wish. I have a comfortable life; I don't need it torn down to satisfy someone's desire for revolution. If the Torches and Pitchforks mob comes to my door, I'll lock it and try my best to protect my family, not join it.

But the positions I support are staunchly in the social liberal camp, even if I want them accomplished by working within the system, not by breaking it.

edited 7th Sep '16 2:35:45 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#137582: Sep 7th 2016 at 2:42:08 PM

The track record of social democracy and/or full-on Communism in non-U.S., non-European states is mind-boggingly abysmal, filled with corruption and malfeasance, and utterly failing to raise standards of living or meaningfully address inequality in most cases.

Not to mention managing to leave things worse than before than when they took over.

I have a problem with the romanticized view of revolutions. It becomes a buzzword to solve problems instead of motivating the analysis of the problems, study and implement a workable and viable solution. Social issues, Inequality, discrimination, too much government, too little government, not enough family values, too many liberals, groups with too much or too little power? Revolution!

More often than not revolutions don't work to solve fundamental issues that created the revolutionary movement to begin with. Specially the violent revolutions that end up putting people who are capable of fighting and conducting warfare in charge but ultimately fail as rulers. Specially when once in power they find out that ruling isn't easy and their goals and ideals aren't that viable or easy to implement.

Inter arma enim silent leges
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#137583: Sep 7th 2016 at 2:46:15 PM

Likewise, if the American government is going to crash and burn in my lifetime, I want to be somewhere well out of the crossfire when it happens, and I'd rather it not happen just yet. I fit the mold of a Terry Pratchet average citizen: I mostly want to be left alone. Casting my vote against Trump is my leaf in the wind directed at hoping that things don't go completely to shit.

I don't have very much to lose right now but that also means I don't have much of a personal safety net either.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#137584: Sep 7th 2016 at 2:48:50 PM

@Fighteer; I would argue that post industrial society is in a perpetual state of upheaval due to how fast technology changes, so it's simply not an option in my eyes to "play it safe" due to the incredibly rapid (and constantly accelerating) pace at which our modern culture and economy evolves. Paradigms vanish overnight, subcultures are born and die in a span of months, and bad news spreads at the speed of light.

Conventional incrementalism is thus, in my eyes, a dead end; institutions must become more flexible, and policymakers must be willing to step outside of their comfort zones.

edited 7th Sep '16 3:03:34 PM by CaptainCapsase

TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#137585: Sep 7th 2016 at 2:49:27 PM

@Angelus: The one difference is that revolutions are faster than most other solutions. This is a critical point; too many voters don't just want their issues addressed, they want them addressed before the next election cycle comes around. Which, given the current status of U.S. politics, means that most policy solutions have 1-3 years to show concrete improvements, even when it comes to complex issues that will take decades to iron out.

"I want it, and I want it now" seems childish, but it's something that plenty of voters feel on both Republican and Democrat sides. Which, in turn, contributes to the apathy and desire for any change that has defined U.S. politics over the past decade or so.

edited 7th Sep '16 2:49:53 PM by TotemicHero

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#137586: Sep 7th 2016 at 2:50:38 PM

[up][up]Dude. memes don't even die out after a few months. What on earth subcultures are you talking about?

edited 7th Sep '16 2:50:48 PM by blkwhtrbbt

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#137587: Sep 7th 2016 at 2:52:43 PM

[up] Occassionally they do, and that statement was more for emphasis than accuracy.

edited 7th Sep '16 2:53:04 PM by CaptainCapsase

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#137588: Sep 7th 2016 at 2:54:20 PM

The track record of social democracy and/or full-on Communism in non-U.S., non-European states is mind-boggingly abysmal, filled with corruption and malfeasance, and utterly failing to raise standards of living or meaningfully address inequality in most cases.

As opposed to hard capitalism in non-US, non-European states? Have you considered that maybe it has less to do with the nominal ideology than with being a third-world country, with all that entails internally and externally?

I'm tempted to thump that. If you think we're all doomed sheeple and there's no point in debating, then leave.

Then the mod stick is getting to you. Fighteer, when was the last time you remember changing your mind on anything based on discussion here? When was the last time you admitted to being flat-out wrong about anything?

. This is a critical point; too many voters don't just want their issues addressed, they want them addressed before the next election cycle comes around.

When your very life is in danger, your welfare, your livelihood, your school, your job, damn right you want a fix now, not when you're already thrown in the street, locked out of college, bankrupt from hospital bills, thrown in jail for smoking weed, homeless because you pissed drunk in an alley, shot dead for being black, or whatever other unjust and horrible fate is staring you right in the face.

edited 7th Sep '16 2:56:45 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#137589: Sep 7th 2016 at 3:07:14 PM

Can we return to a happier topic? Or at least go back to panicing about that poll that had Trump up +1 in Florida.

This particular line of conversation just doesn't seem to go anywhere.

edited 7th Sep '16 3:07:49 PM by CaptainCapsase

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#137590: Sep 7th 2016 at 3:08:23 PM

Stein is getting arrested, that's good.

Oh really when?
FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#137591: Sep 7th 2016 at 3:10:00 PM

THE JET SET: WEALTHY TOURING COLLEGES IN PRIVATE PLANES

On a late August morning, in the dusky haze of the San Fernando Valley, a former Los Angeles politician boards a Gulfstream G200 jet with his teenage son. Inside the 175-square-foot, overwhelmingly beige cabin, complimentary varsity swag is neatly arranged on a few of the leather lounge chairs, cheerily setting the tone for what’s to come: a privately chartered trip to some of the nation’s finest liberal arts colleges, including Johns Hopkins, Colby College and Dartmouth.Over the course of the next nine days—during which the two passengers will visit nine schools—nearly every desire will be provided for, however large (meticulously scheduled chauffeured service between airports, schools and hotels) or small (Peanut M&Ms). The galley refreshment bar will be stocked with Diet Sprite at all times, along with brownies and vanilla ice cream. Grapes on the vine, chocolate chip cookies, watermelon cubes and an assortment of sandwiches on sourdough bread will also be served, all according to the client’s request.

On a small dining table, an in-flight reference guide by Ivy League admissions experts offers strategies for maximizing the impact of each college visit. In the front seat is a handwritten note tucked between a Dartmouth baseball cap and T-shirt: We know that this is an exciting and stressful time for you both and we are happy that Magellan Jets could be a part of this milestone. If this doesn’t sound like the way you explored your college options as a high school senior, blame your low bank account balance. The recently launched college-tour package from Magellan Jets, a membership-driven private aviation company based in Boston, has been specifically designed for America’s top earners. With a price tag greater than a year’s college tuition, the program aims to decrease both the headache and the time spent on college campus visits. Magellan takes care of details such as setting efficient travel routes, arranging private campus tours and orchestrating ground transportation. Base price is jet-specific: 10 hours of air time on a light-size, seven-seater Hawker 400XP starts at $52,000, while the same package on the aforementioned super-midsize Gulfstream G200, which can seat up to 18, costs upward of $100,000. The service is completely customizable—Magellan will extend flight time to accommodate additional schools and make the appropriate hotel reservations for a supplementary fee.Magellan says these tour packages are invaluable to the hyper-wealthy kids and parents who use the service (none of whom would speak with Newsweek ). “Unless you’re flying private, there’s just no way to see 10 schools over the course of five days,” says Magellan senior aviation specialist Joseph Santo, who works on trip logistics. “Is it cost-effective? Absolutely not. But for people with busy schedules who can’t take a week or two off of work, it means dollars and cents at the end of the day.”

In fact, the demand for this college-tour service has never been greater among Magellan’s members, says the company’s CEO, Joshua Hebert. Many own planes but for convenience buy a membership that affords them a number of hours per year in Magellan-managed jets. The college-tour package is offered on top of that. “[It’s] one of the things that our clients continued to ask for,” Hebert tells Newsweek . “Finally we said, ‘OK, let’s create a product around this because people are asking for it so much.’”With the package now in its third year, 22 families have bought the designated college-tour package in the past two years, Magellan says. An additional 22 customers used their jets to visit campuses in that period, without purchasing the package.

Your Money or Your GPA

It’s well-documented that America’s top colleges and universities target the wealthy in their recruitment efforts and often lower academic standards for their progeny. It’s been dubbed “the preference of privilege” by Pulitzer Prize–winning journalist Daniel Golden in his book The Price of Admission: How America’s Ruling Class Buys Its Way Into Elite Colleges—and Who Gets Left Outside the Gates. Admissions departments favor wealthy students, even if their applications are weaker than those who are less privileged. Secondary education, after all, is a business. And no top-rated college got that way without donations for expensive libraries, prestige faculty hires and gaudy student centers.Getting into a good school in the U.S. is now seemingly harder than running for president, and admissions practices are becoming less and less transparent, says college consultant Mimi Doe, co-founder of Top Tier Admissions, which provides reference material for Magellan’s college-tour customers. Doe estimates that roughly half the student body at any given institution had some sort of “in” or “hook” (either they were athletic recruits or alumni children or what Golden calls “development cases”—kids whose well-off parents are expected to make sizable donations). While Doe and her business partner, former Dartmouth admissions officer Michele Hernández, have been very successful helping the 1 percent get into the best schools (97 percent of their students get into their top choices each year, they say), they sympathize with those who can’t afford their $30,000 to $50,000 asking price, often offering up free advice on their blog.“Things just aren’t as they appear in admissions,” says Doe. “As a mom and an advocate for this generation, it kills me.”College officials hungry for future endowments can be tipped off to an applicant’s economic status in many ways: by an aggressive college counselor, by an alumnus or board member, or perhaps by a private-aviation company scheduling an exclusive tour for one of its customers. On behalf of those who sign up for their college-tour package, Magellan gladly taps into its network of billionaires, many of whom are high-profile alumni or on the boards at elite universities. “We have a list of schools and customers who went there, and they’re able to make the [application] experience a little better by making the right introduction,” says Hebert.Traditionally, universities sent recruiters to find rich kids at notable prep and charter schools, says Golden. A jet tour like Magellan’s that targets the wealthy and delivers them like a butler offering a plate of Strottarga Bianco caviar takes the work out of the chase. “Money and connections are increasingly tainting college admissions, undermining both its credibility and value,” he wrote in The Price of Admission .If a major purpose of American higher education is to facilitate upward mobility, the system is broken. Colleges favor those already at the top, families who have connections and can afford expensive SAT prep or private counseling from the likes of Top Tier Admissions. Evidence shows that merely interviewing at a college or university enhances one’s chances of acceptance, simply because it implies a level of seriousness about that school. But not all applicants can afford to travel.While elitism in colleges and universities is certainly not news, it’s symptomatic of the growing income inequality among Americans. At a time when the national conversation is so often focused on student-loan debt and the increasing cost of education, Golden finds it alarming that programs like this are flourishing.“Here’s a group of applicants whose parents are willing to pay the equivalent of a year’s tuition just for the convenience and access of a private jet tour,” he says. “Meanwhile, the vast majority of Americans struggle to afford tuition.”

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#137592: Sep 7th 2016 at 3:13:14 PM

@Totemic Hero

And that is part of the problem, haste makes waste after all. The "I want it now" attitude shouldn't be catered or incentivized because it simply doesn't work and many of the issues we deal with don't have easy to implement, backfire proof and guaranteed to work solutions. More often than not those usually create more problems than they fix.

People want fast and simple solutions to complex problems that will take time to work. Instead of the politicians, and by extension the media, taking their sweet ass time to explain for the average voter or their invested voter bases, that whatever they want can't be achieved quickly and easily as they'd like to but can be done with proper planning and commitment. Instead we get a politicians playing the "Just do it and do it now" cards like Trump is doing and the news channels playing controversies instead of actually exposing the agendas and how they can affect people in the short and long terms.

This was one of the reasons why the Occupy Wall Street failed to achieve anything. They wanted change, they wanted it fast and they failed to provide clear alternatives or means besides being very vague about what they wanted which got them nowhere.

Saying end racism end corporate greed or fix inequality by themselves mean nothing unless you draw clear sets of steps and plans to achieve the goal. Which is as stupid as The War on Drugs, War on Crime and War on Terror are because they created more problems than they fixed exactly because they were vague concepts and whatever measure to fight them were being implemented without much thought on their consequences.

Conventional incrementalism is thus, in my eyes, a dead end; institutions must become more flexible, and policymakers must be willing to step outside of their comfort zones.

I think you're vastly overestimating how fast people can change their minds and how fast institutions change with people. Not everyone is flexible and not everyone can cope with fast changes.

edited 7th Sep '16 3:24:55 PM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#137593: Sep 7th 2016 at 3:21:49 PM

When your very life is in danger, your welfare, your livelihood, your school, your job, damn right you want a fix now, not when you're already thrown in the street, locked out of college, bankrupt from hospital bills, thrown in jail for smoking weed, homeless because you pissed drunk in an alley, shot dead for being black, or whatever other unjust and horrible fate is staring you right in the face.
Welcome to life. In all places in all countries, you can be screwed over by the system for something you did that shouldn't be a crime, or because of what you are. Screaming "fix it now" at the top of your lungs and rejecting anyone who tells you you can't have what you want instantly may be cathartic but it doesn't make change happen. It just screws up the system for people who are working to fix it.

edited 7th Sep '16 3:22:04 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#137594: Sep 7th 2016 at 3:22:09 PM

[up][up] and [up] This is very sensible. However, while not all change is an improvement, all improvement is a change. And, for the folks who are in the poverty trap or living hand to mouth, who are powerless and voiceless, well, as Trump said, unwittingly paraphrasing Marx, "What the hell are you gonna lose?" (Besides your life, that is.)

I think "I want change NOW because otherwise this or that horrible thing will happen to me while you delay" seems entirely fair to me. I don't think the delay in these matters is due to mere pulchritudinous zeal executed with optimal diligence. I think much of the delay is because those responsible have other priorities than helping those who need change now.

[down]That's the point, isn't it? Clinton has decades of smear baggage hindering her. Famous and notorious.

edited 7th Sep '16 3:30:33 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#137595: Sep 7th 2016 at 3:22:51 PM

Sanders only looks more electable than Clinton because he hasn't faced the GOP attack machine yet.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
nervmeister Since: Oct, 2010
#137596: Sep 7th 2016 at 3:35:44 PM

Uh, no. I'm quite far on the liberal spectrum, although I trend towards the authoritarian side of governance. What I am angry about is the constant insistence that Hillary Clinton somehow represents a right-wing viewpoint. It is a conclusion that could only be reached by having swallowed the media narrative about her hook, line, and sinker, and blatantly ignoring facts.
How exactly is liberal democracy and authoritarianism compatable, again (other than maybe in emergency situations)?

edited 7th Sep '16 3:37:07 PM by nervmeister

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#137597: Sep 7th 2016 at 3:38:26 PM

Then the mod stick is getting to you. Fighteer, when was the last time you remember changing your mind on anything based on discussion here? When was the last time you admitted to being flat-out wrong about anything?

Oh come on, Handel I actually like you, so please don't go down the "everyone here is a sheepie unable to create an original thought" route, it makes you completely worthless to engage in conversation with and you're better than that.

For once it's not the mod stick getting to Fighteer, it's fact that the "everyone is sheepie and none of us have original thoughts" is just more nihilist bullshit that's banned for good reason. That's not just getting to him by the way, it's getting to me and probably others.

edited 7th Sep '16 3:39:14 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#137598: Sep 7th 2016 at 3:39:35 PM

[up][up]Liberal as social liberal like supportive of gay rights, women rights, minority rights etc.

Being authoritarian means giving more power to the government instead of the private sector or the civil society as a whole.

edited 7th Sep '16 3:39:46 PM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#137599: Sep 7th 2016 at 3:39:48 PM

Authoritarian is the wrong term, and a loaded one. But liberalism and the idea that government, rather than individuals, is an ideal solution for many problems go hand in hand.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#137600: Sep 7th 2016 at 3:40:22 PM

Former Secretary of Health and Human Services under President George H.W. Bush endorses Hillary Clinton. He's the third Bush Sr. cabinet member to cross the aisle to openly support Clinton.

edited 7th Sep '16 3:44:41 PM by Parable


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