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Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#137076: Sep 2nd 2016 at 3:05:58 PM

@everyone else: seriously the bait is so obvious guys, ignore him.

I try not to assume someone is a troll if I can help it just because they have unpopular or questionable opinions if I can help it, but I have to admit I sort of regret responding if only because I don't see this conversation ending well. The note about the person's edit history more or less cinches that.

On the subject of states' rights, I think there are some things which you might reasonably say are ok for states to decide according to their own circumstances, but certain things are not negotiable. The right for gay people to marry is one of those things.

edited 2nd Sep '16 3:07:02 PM by Draghinazzo

golgothasArisen Since: Jan, 2015
#137077: Sep 2nd 2016 at 3:07:17 PM

adding to the Syrian refugees: just because your grandfather said something decades ago doesn't mean that it applies here. times have changed, the context is key.

also, lgbt rights are a fucking huge issue. so many right-wing people, at best, have used lgbt tragedies like the Orlando shooting as a catalyst to push their agendas. at worst, they're out-right encouraging the deaths of lgbt members.

edited 2nd Sep '16 3:07:37 PM by golgothasArisen

"If you spend all your heart / On something that has died / You are not alive and that can't be a life"
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#137078: Sep 2nd 2016 at 3:08:55 PM

On the subject of states' rights, I think there are some things which you might reasonably say are ok for states to decide according to their own circumstances, but certain things are not negotiable. The right for gay people to marry is one of those things.

Pretty much. If say, different states want to make certain drugs legal or illegal, that's fine. Leaving aside all the issues relating to enforcement, imprisonment, etc, there is no Constitutional right to get high, and the fact that it's legal to buy marijuana in Colorado but not Texas isn't liable to ruin anyone's life.

But marriage? That's a fundamental right. It cannot be legal one place and illegal another place.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#137079: Sep 2nd 2016 at 3:11:30 PM

"Leaving aside all the issues relating to enforcement, imprisonment, etc, " but those are the whole point!

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
madfoot Since: Aug, 2011
#137080: Sep 2nd 2016 at 3:11:58 PM

Looking over the screed from the last page, the anti-immigration stuff is really special. So's the attempt at trying to paint Trump as pro-gay rights. And of course writing off BLM and similar movements as "identity politics" and blaming the Democrats for the racists crawling out of the woodwork. Yeesh.

I didn't write it off. I said good things about it. Like I said, I was raised to be more colorblind and "race doesn't matter", but identity politics is something I've come around to believe isn't as bad as I first thought. I just don't like the hypocrisy of turning around and basically saying white identity politics shouldn't exist. I understand the argument, that because of white privilege they don't "need" it as much, but that's too much of a double standard, and human nature doesn't work that way. You need to find a way to reach out to the good people on that side, or we'll never have a hope of healing our divisions instead of making them worse.

This isn't the only thing I've changed my mind to the left on. I was much more transphobic a few years ago. I went from being completely ignorant of trans* issues, to suddenly seeing "die cis scum" everywhere, so of course I reacted negatively, but my views moderated over time. I still don't agree with the "sex =/= gender" argument, on a philosophical level, but I defer to pronouns, researched .

Someone mentioned earlier that Trump's opposed to bathroom equality, but that's actually completely false.

thatguythere47 Since: Jul, 2010
#137081: Sep 2nd 2016 at 3:12:26 PM

@drag: I didn't assume he was a troll, I was actually breaking down his post point by point when I got to the ridiculous sentence I first highlighted then did some digging. Plus it's essentially terrible person bingo. He hit literally every mark right down to fucking gamergate.

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?
golgothasArisen Since: Jan, 2015
#137082: Sep 2nd 2016 at 3:12:44 PM

He supported the NC bathroom bill for god's sake.

also oh my god are you suggesting we need movements for white people

yep this is definitely a troll

edited 2nd Sep '16 3:13:49 PM by golgothasArisen

"If you spend all your heart / On something that has died / You are not alive and that can't be a life"
Zarastro Since: Sep, 2010
#137083: Sep 2nd 2016 at 3:12:48 PM

[up] To be fair, I think that empowering the states is not a bad thing per se.

It is just bad if this used as an excuse to delay social progress,

Edit: This thread is moving too fast for me.

edited 2nd Sep '16 3:13:38 PM by Zarastro

madfoot Since: Aug, 2011
#137084: Sep 2nd 2016 at 3:16:04 PM

Was the cry of states' rights ever more than a political dog whistle?

My first exposure to states' rights was marijuana laws, and conceal carry, so no, definitely not. I've always felt strongly that bottom-up rule by the people is superior to top-down rule by oligarchs in most instances. I think the next step after states' rights is more sending power from the states to the communities, and so on, too.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#137085: Sep 2nd 2016 at 3:17:29 PM

"Leaving aside all the issues relating to enforcement, imprisonment, etc, " but those are the whole point!

No they're not. That a prison sentence for an activity is a gross overreaction is a whole different issue from whether the activity should be legal. Five years in jail for jaywalking would be a gross overreaction. Doesn't mean jaywalking should be legalized.

[up]So basically you want to get stoned and screw over gay people (and nonwhite minorities). Classic alt-right. Got it.

Someone mentioned earlier that Trump's opposed to bathroom equality, but that's actually completely false.

You haven't kept up with his position changes, have ya? He said he was opposed to the bill until his base screamed loud enough. Then he changed his position and threw his support to the bigots.

edited 2nd Sep '16 3:19:39 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#137086: Sep 2nd 2016 at 3:19:28 PM

I'm starting to feel that both sides to this discussion are acting like dicks.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#137087: Sep 2nd 2016 at 3:23:21 PM

[up][up][up]More power to states and to individual communities?

Are they not American? Why do they get to make their own rules independent of the federal government?

Oh really when?
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#137088: Sep 2nd 2016 at 3:24:10 PM

[up][up]Agree, though each for different reasons. I'm sitting it out but I'm going to suggest to the anti-Trump side to back off the open hostility, if mostly to let those actually trying to engage do so.

edited 2nd Sep '16 3:24:27 PM by Elle

madfoot Since: Aug, 2011
#137089: Sep 2nd 2016 at 3:25:43 PM

Uh, I just want to say that the Alt-right? Their core really is Neo-nazis. That's not exaggeration or anything, it's totally literal.

It's 4chan nazis, who post memes. And redditors. And Breitbart. And Trump supporters, according to Hillary Clinton. And yes, some of them are stormfronters and real racists.

Alt-right, like SJW, has no set definition and no organized structure. This is exactly why the left got annoyed over the term over the years, since it was a useful term, but also a smear. Alt-right is exactly the same thing. Both terms are useful, since we have an idea of who they refer to, but I'd be careful about letting confirmation bias get in the way.

When you're dealing with such loosely-defined, and large, groups, the words pretty much mean whatever the author needs them to mean at the time. Heck, liberal and conservative are the same way. We generally think of liberals to mean the left, but FA Hayek and Milton Friedman called themselves liberals. Completely different definitions.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#137090: Sep 2nd 2016 at 3:25:58 PM

[up][up][up][up]Yeah me, Madfoot opinion maybe be bad, but right now im start feel a lot of dickishness over here.

edited 2nd Sep '16 3:26:35 PM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#137091: Sep 2nd 2016 at 3:27:50 PM

Madfoot, I utterly disagree with you, but stick around. Helps break up the monotony of the thread.

That said, these text walls are giving me a headache. <flees>

madfoot Since: Aug, 2011
#137092: Sep 2nd 2016 at 3:27:55 PM

So basically you want to get stoned and screw over gay people (and nonwhite minorities). Classic alt-right. Got it.

I live in a state where gay marriage was legalized but has the most useless medical marijuana laws in the country. So no.

golgothasArisen Since: Jan, 2015
#137093: Sep 2nd 2016 at 3:29:14 PM

I just want to say that I think going out your way to look for some dirt on someone with a differing opinion is a witch hunt if I've ever seen one. At the same time, though, it's fine IMO to argue over these same differing opinions.

"If you spend all your heart / On something that has died / You are not alive and that can't be a life"
madfoot Since: Aug, 2011
#137094: Sep 2nd 2016 at 3:32:11 PM

Madfoot, I utterly disagree with you, but stick around. Helps break up the monotony of the thread.

That said, these text walls are giving me a headache. <flees>

I'd like to, it's a relief arguing about politics somewhere where I don't feel like I'm fighting all the time or isn't /pol/. Sometimes I have a stick up my butt, but I'll try not to be a dick myself. [nja]

edited 2nd Sep '16 3:32:40 PM by madfoot

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#137095: Sep 2nd 2016 at 3:33:32 PM

Yeah lets all just be civil and try to have a good honest debate in good faith. And I'm also in favor of not having huge text walls. It's hard to keep up with those.

Oh really when?
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#137096: Sep 2nd 2016 at 3:35:00 PM

I live in a state where gay marriage was legalized but has the most useless medical marijuana laws in the country. So no.

This says absolutely nothing about you, anymore than Garcon living in a racist hellhole says anything about him.

Anyway, if you look at Trump, and the people he's surrounded himself with and say "that seems reasonable" I don't really have much else to say to you. From "look at my African-American" to "lock her up" to "Second Amendment people" to "maybe we'll deport Hillary" the Trump campaign has endorsed racism and authoritarianism at their finest.

I don't like to throw around the term "fascist" when describing the hard right. I never applied it to Bush. I never applied it to McCain. I never applied it to Romney. I'll cheerfully apply it to Trump. The man has embraced every reactionary, neo-Nazi, neo-Confederate position to come his way.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#137097: Sep 2nd 2016 at 3:35:18 PM

The three pages that also appeared over the course of an hour probably didn't help. >.>

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#137098: Sep 2nd 2016 at 3:39:09 PM

Dammit people, if you think someone is a troll just stop responding and send a hollar, don't create two pages of "this person is such an obvious troll" posts.

As for the points raised, I'd go though them, but I've had a couple of ciders and would rather just watch some E-sports, I'll get to deconstructing them later.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#137099: Sep 2nd 2016 at 3:42:38 PM

I'm starting to feel that both sides to this discussion are acting like dicks.

I don't.

I violently disagree with nearly everything that Madfoot's said, but he's been nothing but civil since he's started posting here.

And frankly, people are too quick to cry TROLL for every dissenting opinion. Hell, two days ago, I got accused of being a troll in the RWBY thread. Me. Everyone knows me.

So let's ease off on that, shall we?

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#137100: Sep 2nd 2016 at 3:44:21 PM

[up]I fail to see how writing off gay rights as a "minor culture war" qualifies as civil, frankly.


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