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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#136551: Aug 27th 2016 at 2:41:01 PM

The problem with "they warned us about X!" is that they probably didn't, so much as describe the general human condition.

Leviticus 19:34
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#136552: Aug 27th 2016 at 2:57:08 PM

@Dead Abe Lincoln Video: I liked it until it started telling me to vote for Gary Johnson. Speaking of which, if Hilary's a mob boss and Trump's the Joker, then what does that make Johnson? Because I'm pretty damn sure he ain't Commissioner Gordan.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#136553: Aug 27th 2016 at 2:58:11 PM

[up]Strangely, I want to say that he'd be a less-good Batman.

Leviticus 19:34
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#136554: Aug 27th 2016 at 2:58:33 PM

Handle, we've been over this. The whole Goldman Sachs speech thing is a red herring; people get paid to talk to other people. There's nothing particularly scandalous about that.

It's such a non story that even Bernie Sanders stopped talking about it well before he conceded defeat.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#136555: Aug 27th 2016 at 3:07:48 PM

The problem with "they warned us about X!" is that they probably didn't, so much as describe the general human condition.
The video's title is misleading, it doesn't actually involve any quotes from Lincoln or anything. It's actually a Libertarian ad, using a guy dressed up as Abe Lincoln to shit on both Clinton and Trump and paint Gary Johnson (the Libertarian nominee) as the only viable alternative. Pretty standard bullshit, really. (No, Hillary isn't a bought-and-paid-for criminal who gets away with murder because she's rich and has political connections that she earned by taking marching orders from Wall Street.) I did legitimately laugh at the part where he says "Well, I'm no Libertarian, but...", though. Maybe that was supposed to be in character as Lincoln.

The only thing that's remotely interesting about the video is that it links to a website that supposedly matches people who would vote Democrat in a certain state with people who would vote Republican in the same state, to make sure that both people can vote Libertarian without it simply being one less vote for your second choice. Since you're matched with someone who has the opposite second choice, together it's one less vote for each mainstream party and two more votes for the Libertarian party.

Of course, Gary Johnson is a lunatic almost as bad as Trump (just on economic policy rather than social policy), so even if the site is completely legit and above-board (which I am deeply skeptical about, given that such and obviously pro-Libertarian site has little reason not to send every vote they possibly can to Johnson, and it's largely impossible to confirm that the site is legit and that the people using it aren't feeding it crap), presenting Johnson as preferable to Clinton is laughable.

I'd be curious to know if Johnson is actually drawing votes equally from both the left and the right, as the video claims. I very much suspect that it draws more from the right than from the left.

edited 27th Aug '16 3:11:52 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#136556: Aug 27th 2016 at 3:16:33 PM

He's probably drawing more from the right, if only because the Republicans had a period of trying to attract Libertarians while the Democrats never really cared.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#136557: Aug 27th 2016 at 3:24:23 PM

He's probably drawing more from the right, if only because the Republicans had a period of trying to attract Libertarians while the Democrats never really cared.
Pretty much my thought, yeah. Libertarians are all about government staying out of things that aren't their business (which, according to libertarians, is basically everything), and the Republicans are the ones who bill themselves as the party of small government.

edited 27th Aug '16 3:24:48 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
megarockman from The Sixth Borough (Experienced Trainee)
#136558: Aug 27th 2016 at 4:34:15 PM

Far as I remember, 538's conclusion based on comparing polls with and without third-party candidates is that (for now anyway) Clinton is losing more votes to third-party candidates than Trump by about 1 percentage point. This was several weeks ago, though, so it may or may not still be valid.

The damned queen and the relentless knight.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#136559: Aug 27th 2016 at 4:55:03 PM

Sure but that's with the Greens included as well, the Libertarians aren't the only independents. The same way the many Libertarians lean Republican many Greens lean Dem.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#136560: Aug 27th 2016 at 5:39:57 PM

Standards are a thing, particularly for public office.
I wouldn't call it slut-shaming per se but it definitely is a question of class.

That sluttiness is a question of "class" and a loss of "standard" is slut-shaming.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#136561: Aug 27th 2016 at 5:49:48 PM

With Melania Trump, I think part of the criticism or at least defense of the criticism from liberals (myself included) is because how early on, Michelle Obama got a lot of generally racist criticism for not fitting the ideal of what a first lady is supposed to be. And it took the form of accusations about her being low class (despite being a well educated lawyer) and dressing in an inappropriate manner (wearing sleeveless outfits).

And to this end, it's ironic that Melania seems like a poor fit for first lady, what with her questionable English language skills and background that at the very least is unprecedented. It's a nice parallel with how most of the false accusations leveled against Obama by conservatives (unqualified, racist, in the pocket of foreign enemies) actually apply to Trump.

I mean slut shaming is bad of course and I don't think it was right that the New York Post had a cover using a nude picture of her. However, while I can't really put my finger on it, I'd say that the First Lady is supposed to have a certain amount of class which she lacks. One thing is that while there's nothing wrong with not being a native English speaker, she doesn't come across as being fluent, which does seem like an implicit requirement. If nothing else, she has poor taste in husbands.

edited 27th Aug '16 5:54:21 PM by Hodor2

rikalous World's Cutest Direwolf from Upscale Mordor (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
World's Cutest Direwolf
#136562: Aug 27th 2016 at 6:04:32 PM

People claiming Michelle Obama wasn't classy enough to be first lady doesn't justify talking about how Melania Trump isn't classy enough to be first lady unless one of those people was Melania Trump.

Nor do I think the accusations are actually relevant. Neither Michelle nor Melania were ever running for office. If you want to take a shot at Donald Trump, take a shot at Donald Trump, not what his wife allegedly did for a living. It's not like there's a shortage of targets, for crying out loud.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#136563: Aug 27th 2016 at 6:09:27 PM

That's true.

I guess the argument I'm making is directed against the (hypothetical?) people who criticized Michelle Obama but praise Melania Trump.

I have to acknowledge that I don't have the impression that Donald Trump himself is one of those people, nor is Melania as far as I know. So yeah, not really fair to her or justified.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#136564: Aug 27th 2016 at 6:09:39 PM

Regarding support for 3rd parties, performance in the polls doesn't always translate to performance on election day. Plenty of people say they support Johnson or Stein, but they aren't all die hards. Some will vote strategically against Trump/Clinton.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#136565: Aug 27th 2016 at 7:46:19 PM

The Libertarian Party is composed largely of people who haven't learned the life lesson that everyone running around doing whatever the hell they want with no laws or restrictions doesn't make a functional society. Those few who actually think about the implications of their ideology sound reasonable but are ignored by the majority, who seem insistent on building a world based on the Chaotic Stupid trope.

edited 27th Aug '16 7:46:37 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#136566: Aug 27th 2016 at 7:48:56 PM

Alternatively they fully know it won't be a functional society. They just expect that their intelligence will put them on top after the dust settles.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#136567: Aug 27th 2016 at 8:17:21 PM

I always felt the Libertarians were principles zealots who want perfectly equality between the people and the state-even when it makes no sense.

Leviticus 19:34
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#136568: Aug 27th 2016 at 8:19:38 PM

That would imply they believe in the concept of a state. I don't think that's true at all.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#136569: Aug 27th 2016 at 8:27:44 PM

No, Libertarians believe in the concept of the state. They're minarchists, not anarchists.

Leviticus 19:34
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#136570: Aug 27th 2016 at 8:40:29 PM

The kind of state they seem to want is functionally the same as having no state in my mind. The military is the only organization that they seem to believe should exist.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#136571: Aug 27th 2016 at 8:45:41 PM

[up]If we're going for a pretty extreme form of libertarianism, they only want a military for defensive purposes (and are anti-interventionist) and they also want the police and courts to remain public. If they go beyond that, I'd argue they aren't libertarians, but anarcho-capitalists. Though, to be fair, the difference between the two is mostly in degree.

edited 27th Aug '16 8:46:07 PM by Protagonist506

Leviticus 19:34
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#136572: Aug 27th 2016 at 8:47:31 PM

Most libertarians I see don't really like the idea of a police force. If you can't protect your own stuff from being stolen you don't deserve to have it.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#136573: Aug 27th 2016 at 8:55:28 PM

Yeah I have a friend who's a self-described socially liberal libertarian and I can back that [up][up] up. On the subject of the police force as with [up] this guy is pro-BLM and sees the cops as pigs. He is willing to accept minimal support services for the poorest people plus some scientific research funding, which is extremely ironic since he's working at an institution in a position that is largely supported by government funding via the NIH.

He thinks most science should otherwise be sponsored via private donations and industry, since they would be more efficient at identifying which projects benefit society the most, which seems hypocritical considering as a scientist he should know best that a lot of major breakthroughs were achieved via basic science research on things like nematodes and other types of projects which don't have immediate benefits for human health.

edited 27th Aug '16 8:57:44 PM by AlleyOop

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#136574: Aug 27th 2016 at 9:26:24 PM

Ask him how he feels about Martin Shkreli.

Since there is literally nothing stopping that kind of stuff in a Libertarian society.

carbon-mantis Collector Of Fine Oddities from Trumpland Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Married to my murderer
Collector Of Fine Oddities
#136575: Aug 27th 2016 at 9:52:18 PM

So the Maine gov. has now completely lost his shit and is saying nonwhites are the enemy and should be killed.


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