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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#136276: Aug 24th 2016 at 7:46:37 PM

[up][up][up]The party attracts a lot of neckbeard shut-in types. The kind of people who shout "This is America! You have to debate me!" after you get offended at them calling you a niggerfaggot, or something.

Because third parties exist primarily out of a rejection of "big tent" political philosophy, you're going to get a lot of weird people at their conventions.

edited 24th Aug '16 7:47:44 PM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#136277: Aug 24th 2016 at 7:55:43 PM

As much as I dislike the two-party system, I dislike the third parties much more.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#136278: Aug 24th 2016 at 8:07:23 PM

Whatever happened to the American Independent Party? A few decades back, they used to be a viable (well, not obviously insane) political choice, but you never hear about them anymore. I'm guessing they broke up into a bunch of splinter factions...

edited 24th Aug '16 8:12:50 PM by pwiegle

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#136279: Aug 24th 2016 at 8:24:01 PM

[up] That's an inherent problem with a party whose primary claim to fame is "We aren't the Democrats or Republicans; vote for us."

Between them, D's and R's capture the majority of the political spectrum in America, while the fringe parties distinguish themselves by staking out fringe positions. Ergo, if you believe in the basic platform of either party (or a mix-and-match of both), those are your only reasonable choices even if you don't like the candidates.

Parties that try to stake a claim on a single major position find that they can't attract enough people to be viable, since even if you believe in that position, if you also care about other things, you'll be more at home in a major party that also cares about those other things. The Constitution Party may say, "Hey, we support the Constitution! Rabble rabble!" but so do Democrats and Republicans — have you ever heard a Democrat say, "Fuck this stupid Constitution thing," in service of a policy goal?

This unfortunately causes some heartache for voters who, for example, believe in gun control but not abortion, or like Keynesian economics but think we shouldn't help immigrants, or whatever. You can't have a party to match every possible set of ideological positions.

edited 24th Aug '16 8:42:26 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#136280: Aug 24th 2016 at 8:39:49 PM

How does the UK manage having three parties?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#136281: Aug 24th 2016 at 8:45:31 PM

have you ever heard a Democrat say, "Fuck this stupid Constitution thing," in service of a policy goal?

To be fair, that's a lot of people's opinion about control, if not to just flat out the second amendment just try to maliciously loophole abuse your way around it. Arguably, that's pretty justifiable, but it's still a pretty common sentiment.

rmctagg09 The Wanderer from Brooklyn, NY (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
The Wanderer
#136282: Aug 24th 2016 at 8:45:31 PM

I mean, the US has also done a lot of Nazi-like stuff in the past, what with the near genocidal approach to taking land from the natives and the containment camps that sprung up for Japanese citizens during the second World War; we only mostly stopped this shit once everything Hitler did became more predominant in the public eye, but that doesn't change the fact that this country once celebrated finally succeeding in taking every bit of land from the natives, or Woodrow Wilson stating that the bombing of Hiroshima was the greatest day in American history, despite all the Chinese POW's we killed in the process.

I think you might've meant Harry Truman there since Wilson died back in the 1920s.

edited 24th Aug '16 8:45:56 PM by rmctagg09

Hugging a Vanillite will give you frostbite.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#136283: Aug 24th 2016 at 8:48:01 PM

[up][up] While some people do indeed believe that the Second Amendment is obsolete and dangerous, the idea of banning all private gun ownership without first going through the process of amending the Constitution is not something you'll find argued outside of the extreme fringes.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#136284: Aug 24th 2016 at 8:49:53 PM

Fair enough, although I still don't think it's that uncommon to hear people say something like "God's law before man's law" or "Do good and then write laws around it" depending on what issue they're talking about.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#136285: Aug 24th 2016 at 8:53:55 PM

The "God's law before man's law" position is one found mainly on the extreme right. I don't see how a Democrat could possibly say it with any kind of intellectual integrity.

That said, last I heard the Constitution Party is all about some God up in America's laws.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#136286: Aug 24th 2016 at 8:55:27 PM

Parliamentary governments have a much higher tendency to have more then 2 parties and have support for them built into the system, AFAIK. I think UKIP is basically to their conservative party what the Tea Party would be if they had actually split off and formed their own party instead of co-opting the existing one. There also used to be the Liberal Democrats who imploded some years back.

edited 24th Aug '16 8:58:33 PM by Elle

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#136287: Aug 24th 2016 at 8:57:23 PM

"God's law before man's law" — doesn't ISIS say the exact same thing?

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CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#136288: Aug 24th 2016 at 8:57:25 PM

"How does the UK manage having three parties?"

Strong regional political traditions, plus a general differentiation between classical liberalism and social liberalism — the Lib Dems and Labour/SNP are on opposite sides of this divide, while the U.S. Democrats straddle it, and the prevailing Big Tent political paradigm means that regional differences are ironed out behind closed doors. In the past, there used to be third parties or insurgent candidates, but they were usually a sign of drastic political realignment, and once the party that the splinters came from got its shit together, the status quo was restored.

edited 24th Aug '16 8:59:11 PM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#136289: Aug 24th 2016 at 8:57:28 PM

[up][up][up][up]I was thinking more Republican for that one and Democrat for the other.

edited 24th Aug '16 8:57:55 PM by LSBK

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#136290: Aug 24th 2016 at 8:59:36 PM

Funny, the line I remember about Man's Law vs God's Law is "Give unto Cesear what is Cesear's and give unto God what is God's."

blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#136291: Aug 24th 2016 at 9:01:42 PM

[up] And the rule regarding humans punishing the so-called "sinful" is "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#136292: Aug 24th 2016 at 9:10:35 PM

The whole "give unto Caesar" thing, as explained to me by my pastor: It means respecting the legitimacy and authority of the government, but giving unto God means that you put his will above human's laws.

ISIS claims to believe in putting God's will above the will of the state, but: A) they do not, and B) Hitler Ate Sugar. For example, many people have done evil things claiming they want to help the poor, but this does not mean we shouldn't help the poor.

[up]I've heard it said that Jesus was complaining about how the trial was being conducted, not the punishment itself. There wasn't enough witnesses and the husband needed to be punished alongside the woman.

edited 24th Aug '16 9:13:17 PM by Protagonist506

Leviticus 19:34
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#136293: Aug 24th 2016 at 9:12:47 PM

I always understood that statement to mean that you should keep your magisteria separate. Pray and make your devotions and whatnot in your home or your church, but when in the secular realm, you obey secular laws even if they don't conform with your views.

edited 24th Aug '16 9:13:22 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#136294: Aug 25th 2016 at 1:40:01 AM

Damn, in these last few pages, there's an awful lot of people prompt to equate "man accused of rape" with "rapist".

"Prompt to assume the rape charges are trumped-up" does not mean "defending rapists". No one here has ever mentioned "defending someone who had been proven guilty of rape", except those who felt accused of it.

I perfectly get Capcase's point, since I've been on the opposite end of the leaks back in the day (by virtue of being in a country officially opposed to the Iraq war). I've been the guy who instantly assumed the rape charges were trumped-up because the US were calling for Assange's head. And I won't let anyone call me a "rape apologist" for thinking (back then) that the rape didn't happen in the first place.

Edit: And it's not just rape either: In fact, you could have substituted for it any accusation worthy of a Red Notice, such has a bombing. Had he been accused of bombing some place and killing the survivors' dog, I wouldn't have believed it either at the time.


On another subject, I've been thinking about this whole "lesser of two evils" thing. I think that if one is to stay honest, one can't call Clinton "the lesser of two evils" without also calling her the lesser of four evils.

edited 25th Aug '16 1:55:01 AM by Medinoc

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#136295: Aug 25th 2016 at 2:26:04 AM

I'm willing to call Assange a rapist for as long as he's willing to hide from a trial, while innocent people who occasionally run its very rare and the assertion that Sweden is somehow a US puppet that will execute Assange is deranged at best.

If the crime had been commited in the US and there was a call for Assange to be extradited to the US I could see the agreement, but so far nobody has ever provided me with any actual argument as to why Sweden (a neutral non-NATO country) is somehow such a huge US puppet that it would fake rape charges, get the UK to extradite an innocent man and then either execute him or violate both Swedish and EU law and send Assange to the US. Nor why Sweden would be the one doing this entire thing instead of the much more US-friendly UK.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#136296: Aug 25th 2016 at 3:03:29 AM

If you think the UK is much more US friendly than Sweden, you need to keep up with history: this has been found to be false since the fifties since the nineties.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#136297: Aug 25th 2016 at 3:10:00 AM

Right, which is why every UK -> US extradition has been a "when we say jump, you jump" affair.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#136298: Aug 25th 2016 at 3:22:17 AM

My sympathy leaned towards Assange back when the accusations happened, because at that time he looked like a honest whistleblower ready to sacrifice his own well-being to deliver important informations to the world.

Considering what I see of Wikileaks recently, he looks more and more like a petulant child who throws a tantrum whenever something doesn't go his way, and I can absolutely imagine such an man committing a rape of the "I am entitled to have you" kind.

Which doesn't mean that he did. Just that my (absolutely worthless) opinion on the situation has shifted over time.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#136299: Aug 25th 2016 at 3:23:02 AM

[up]X3 Care to explain your logic for that, Sweden is not a member of NATO, did not participate in the Iraq war, does not have the "special relationship", does not have a wildly unequal extradition agreements with the US, haven't been caught being part of a US lead case of mass spying on allies and own citizens, ect...

edited 25th Aug '16 3:23:43 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#136300: Aug 25th 2016 at 3:59:02 AM

[up][up]Roughly the same here.

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."

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