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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#136226: Aug 24th 2016 at 3:04:36 PM

[up] No, and I never tried to say that. What I did say is that the differences would come down to the different geopolitical interests of the respective states. A Russia that dominates the world would not look anything like Russia as it exists today, much like a Nazi Germany capable of winning world war 2 would not look anything like Nazi Germany as we know it.

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#136227: Aug 24th 2016 at 3:04:46 PM

The school of political thought Caprese comes from, if I understand it correctly, holds that individual actors and personal motivations are basically irrelevant. It's all group power dynamics and the assumption that people on the whole will act according to groupthink and selfish motives are stronger than altruistic ones and that all governments are in some form biased toward serving the powerful.

So I believe him when he says he's saying what people would think statistically rather than personally.

edited 24th Aug '16 3:07:03 PM by Elle

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#136228: Aug 24th 2016 at 3:06:23 PM

[up] Exactly. It should be noted however, that I use "selfish" in the sense of "the selfish gene".

edited 24th Aug '16 3:19:11 PM by CaptainCapsase

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#136229: Aug 24th 2016 at 3:06:53 PM

Might be worth waiting for DBL to get back to us on if the "is the US politics thread a bunch of sheepies" discussion is allowed. As going by the recent mod post it may well actually have been meant to be been denied by the previous mod post.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#136230: Aug 24th 2016 at 3:09:27 PM

Said philosophy doesn't make for interesting discussion, since it by its nature reduces the rest of our points of view to irrelevance and we must all bow to the Captain as the one true knower of things.

Sorry, but that ideology is as much an absolutist and therefore absurd mindset than the whole Individual Will can change the whole wide world mentality that it opposes.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#136231: Aug 24th 2016 at 3:09:48 PM

[up][up] I'd prefer to just drop this. I didn't intend for people to take it personally, and I'm sorry to have angered you with poor wording.

[up] It's called determinism.

edited 24th Aug '16 3:10:24 PM by CaptainCapsase

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#136232: Aug 24th 2016 at 3:10:37 PM

Yeah it could work for the philosophy thread but it's not exactly a good discussion for here.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#136233: Aug 24th 2016 at 3:12:24 PM

[up][up]If I cared about its official name, I'd have taken the pains to write it out myself. I am not in the philosophy thread, nor the religion thread, nor do I like it when either topic migrates to this thread. Don't need your patronizing me about the bloody name.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#136234: Aug 24th 2016 at 3:23:57 PM

[up]That's an overreaction.

But "dsterninisn" is not enough to explain that position. You need to account for love, a sense of justice, a curiosity for the truth, as well as laziness, ignorance, conflict between the powerful, movements being hijacked or going off the rails... Determinism is too general, and realpolitik is too narrow. Be precise. Silly Rabbit, Cynicism Is for Losers!

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#136235: Aug 24th 2016 at 3:27:31 PM

Frankly subscribing to an outlook as deterministic as the one that Caspase is pushing defeats the entire purpose of talking about politics in the first place. It also ignores observable reality in some cases. Everyone in this thread knows that I'm no fan of American foreign policy during the Cold War. Calling out the US for its support of the likes of Pinochet, Videla, Habre (who finally went to prison in May, I'm pleased to report) et al is a personal hobby of mine. But that doesn't change the sad reality that the USSR managed to be even worse, and that a world dominated by the Soviet Union would almost certainly be an even lousier place than it is now.

If we were to ascribe colours of morality to states, the USA would certainly be in the grey. But states like the USSR would be much darker, and some, like Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan (and frankly the USSR during the Stalin years) would be black.

FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#136236: Aug 24th 2016 at 3:28:33 PM

[up][up]No, its the only level of reaction one can make when more polite reactions go over peoples head.

So Politico figures Trump is chafing under the new campaign manager. Did a bunch of scripted stuff the last few days, then this time went off script again.

edited 24th Aug '16 3:28:41 PM by FFShinra

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#136237: Aug 24th 2016 at 3:28:38 PM

[up]X3 Far from an over reaction, a lot of folks are probably feeling patronised and looked down upon with this discussion.

As for your link, you appear to be confused, I'm the Rabbit and I'm the optimist. tongue

edited 24th Aug '16 3:28:53 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#136238: Aug 24th 2016 at 3:33:06 PM

@Handle: It's determinism in the sense of historical materialism/determinism; the view that society is largely a product of its environment (defined loosely here), not of the people in it since, in sufficiently large groups, people are more or less interchangeable, insofar as the full range of "natural talent" from genetic variability should be represented. Unless you adhere to scientific racism, and assume that one particular (large) population of humans has qualities which make it better than another particular (large) population. this assumption must hold true. Thus, differences between societies can be understood in terms of differences in the underlying environment, and in terms of the existing social structures and institutions which compose a society, which themselves arise in their initial forms from the underlying material environment.

edited 24th Aug '16 3:35:53 PM by CaptainCapsase

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#136239: Aug 24th 2016 at 3:36:21 PM

Bull. Again, are you going to look at the USA and the USSR circa 1950 and tell me they are exactly the same and function the same way? Because if you see no difference between Harry Truman and Josef Stalin or the nations they ran, you've got issues.

edited 24th Aug '16 3:36:33 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#136240: Aug 24th 2016 at 3:36:22 PM

@Shinra, what did he say this time?

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#136241: Aug 24th 2016 at 3:37:50 PM

[up][up] That's not what I'm asserting, I'm asserting that, were the underlying material factors of the United States and the USSR be reversed, Harry Truman would be like Joseph Stalin, and vice versa.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#136242: Aug 24th 2016 at 3:38:07 PM

[up]X4 You know I don't think the best responce to Shinra explaing that he doesn't care about your philosophical bend is to try and explain it to him. He's a smart guy and you go Jehovah Witness on him is unlikely to win him over.

edited 24th Aug '16 3:38:27 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
thatguythere47 Since: Jul, 2010
#136243: Aug 24th 2016 at 3:38:22 PM

@captain: such a model doesn't allow for radical outliers changing the game and history is a series of radical outliers changing the game.

And I'm with cap on the idea that the US government would essentially brush off his accusers. They've been willing to work with far worse for far less gain.

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#136244: Aug 24th 2016 at 3:38:56 PM

[up][up] I'm not explaining it to him, I'm explaining it to Handle.

edited 24th Aug '16 3:39:07 PM by CaptainCapsase

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#136245: Aug 24th 2016 at 3:39:06 PM

And that's relevant why? If most of us were raised by Hitler we'd probably be Nazis. Who cares? That's not the world we live in.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#136246: Aug 24th 2016 at 3:39:53 PM

To try and move on.

@Shinra, you said Trump went off script recently? What did he do? I can buy him being on script recently as he haven't had any crazy moments, but him breaking script recently is news.

Also isn't the new campaign managed a nutball in his own right? I'm shocked that he's giving Trump a script.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#136247: Aug 24th 2016 at 3:39:56 PM

I mean, the US has also done a lot of Nazi-like stuff in the past, what with the near genocidal approach to taking land from the natives and the containment camps that sprung up for Japanese citizens during the second World War; we only mostly stopped this shit once everything Hitler did became more predominant in the public eye, but that doesn't change the fact that this country once celebrated finally succeeding in taking every bit of land from the natives, or Woodrow Wilson stating that the bombing of Hiroshima was the greatest day in American history, despite all the Chinese POW's we killed in the process.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#136248: Aug 24th 2016 at 3:41:49 PM

[up][up] He's a nutball, but he's a great deal more devious than Manafort in my opinion. He's much better and sowing doubt and convincing people who agree with the left/center that politics are a waste of their time/that they're on the wrong side.

edited 24th Aug '16 3:43:00 PM by CaptainCapsase

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#136249: Aug 24th 2016 at 3:42:17 PM

[up][up]We're not denying that but to say the US isn't better than it was decades ago is overly naive and cynical in my mind.

edited 24th Aug '16 3:42:33 PM by Kostya

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#136250: Aug 24th 2016 at 3:44:05 PM

You say that, but if it was better, then people like Trump wouldn't have even gotten this far in a presidential race.

edited 24th Aug '16 3:44:14 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!

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