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Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#135651: Aug 18th 2016 at 9:14:47 AM

[up][up]

In my world view, a person is not entitled to believe factually wrong things.

Hmm...may I suggest a rather silly idea? Should everyone have to attend lessons say...every five years or so and get updated on what the factually right things are? smile

edited 18th Aug '16 9:14:58 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#135652: Aug 18th 2016 at 9:18:41 AM

[up]That's a little weird. I would say that access to factual information needs to be much greater; our current infosphere places way too much emphasis on click-bait and "truthiness". It's also possible to have reasonable disputes or doubts about what the facts are. The need for most people is not having facts shoved into their faces like hungry barn animals; it's having the mental facilities to discern factual information from information based on beliefs, feelings, or opinions.

Heck, I'd be a hypocrite myself if I said I didn't succumb to click-bait from time to time; I only have so much bandwidth for information and having it delivered in pithy packages is attractive when fatigued.

[up][up] Frankly, that's something I can indulge in on a one-on-one basis, but there's just no time for it on a wide scale given how crucial the issues facing us at the moment are.

edited 18th Aug '16 9:22:25 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
megarockman from The Sixth Borough (Experienced Trainee)
#135653: Aug 18th 2016 at 9:19:04 AM

I would think there comes a point, though, where people would just stop trying out of frustration, lack of energy (most of us still have to do our daily jobs whether in the workplace or at the student's desk), and the sheer number of people out there.

The damned queen and the relentless knight.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#135654: Aug 18th 2016 at 9:20:34 AM

[up] It's only something that can potentially work for someone you have a relatively personal relationship with, in my opinion. Arguing with random strangers online is unlikely to be productive except for people who are already open to questioning their beliefs.

[up][up] And I would expect nothing more; we are only human, after all, and on its own, it doesn't make that great of a difference.. It's where things start however, and if enough people are participating, it can make a tremendous difference.

edited 18th Aug '16 9:22:59 AM by CaptainCapsase

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#135655: Aug 18th 2016 at 9:22:43 AM

I've got no intention of trying to turn her into a Democrat (heaven knows I'm not one). I'll settle with "not voting for Trump". Even a non-vote or a third party vote. I wouldn't normally care about my family's political stances (growing up it was just something no one talked about with us and my brother and I have been left alone to figure out our own way in politics and religion) but this year it's important.

(For the record, she's straight out said she doesn't agree with the anti muslim/immigration rhetoric and is fairly firm on the pro-women side of womens health issues and if Bernie had won the primary she might be voting for him because he came out strongly against fracking and that's one of the few issues she's been involved in activisim on because we live in an area where it's a big deal. Her insecurities are mostly economic, right now particularly job security as a result of outsourcing and static income compared to rising cost of living.)

edited 18th Aug '16 9:28:08 AM by Elle

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#135656: Aug 18th 2016 at 9:31:18 AM

[up] I doubt you'll persuade her to vote for Clinton, but why not Gary Johnson?

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#135657: Aug 18th 2016 at 9:31:26 AM

[up][up] Frankly, the economic issues are among the hardest to communicate to a voting public, because they do involve a fairly complex mixture of logic, math, and sociology; also, because there is just so much wrong information out there, propagated by the left as well as by the right.

The left tends to be more correct, but that's not much comfort when you have to wince at the latest thing said by a powerful Democrat. "Not helping!" I shout at the computer screen, to no avail.

[up] Considering how balls-out stupid the Libertarian Party is on economic issues, I could not sincerely recommend it to anyone who cares about them.

edited 18th Aug '16 9:32:34 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#135658: Aug 18th 2016 at 9:33:09 AM

[up] It's preferable to Trump's GOP.

edited 18th Aug '16 9:34:34 AM by CaptainCapsase

flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#135659: Aug 18th 2016 at 9:34:39 AM

Well, at least Libertarians are consistent, consistently bad.

edited 18th Aug '16 9:35:18 AM by flameboy21th

Non Indicative Username
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#135660: Aug 18th 2016 at 9:34:42 AM

In the end, I suspect that it won't make that much difference, although if everyone who says they're supporting Johnson instead voted Trump, it might well swing the election in his favor. So, sure, go Libertarian if you can't bring yourself to vote for Hillary. Knock yourselves out.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#135661: Aug 18th 2016 at 9:36:41 AM

[up] On an individual basis, it doesn't really make that great of a difference. But in sufficiently large numbers, anecdotes become data, and small acts of kindness become transformative social forces.

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#135662: Aug 18th 2016 at 9:43:15 AM

I like Johnson's rhetoric if not his policy and as I've mentioned before I have at least some Libritarian-esque sympathies so suggesting him as an option wouldn't be the worst thing in the world

NY is likely to go blue in any case though I'm not sure about rural Upstate (with the associated grumbling about NYC swinging the representation).

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#135663: Aug 18th 2016 at 9:43:31 AM

Well, right now I'm quite happy with how the election is going, given that we are no longer talking about a close race but rather about just how far the Democrats will bite into Red America to flip previously solid Republican states. I'm totally fine with that and feel no need to pile on to the schadenfreude. I don't think that, at this point, any of these idiotic "media revelations" will damage Clinton enough to turn the tide; if anything, Trump's latest actions (hiring the head of Breitbart for his campaign manager!) seem likely to make things even worse for him.

I'm more concerned at the moment with 2018. If Democrats can't carry this election with enough of a mandate to get sweeping change pushed through Congress, then there will be a lot of buyer's remorse, and that could be a crippling blow for progressive politics. So, while whether you vote Libertarian or Democrat matters little this election, it could make a huge difference down the line.

I'm not settling any more. We've seen the "best" that the right has to offer and it's a dude who gets all his news from breitbart.com. If there is a perfect opportunity for the left to shine, it's now.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
thatguythere47 Since: Jul, 2010
#135664: Aug 18th 2016 at 9:43:53 AM

Fighteer, what I think you're missing is that by dismissing those you disagree with out of hand your not letting yourself be in a position where you can persuade them.

I work with a fellow who is essentially the polar opposite of me in everything but nerdiness. He ignores the mainstream media but reads the rebel (canada's version of brierbart), hes very anti-feminist. not particularly a fan of atheists and has a, shall we say, less then nuanced position on those of colour. If I had started from the position of "everything you believe is wrong and here's why" I would have A: not gotten anywhere with him and B: lost him for any future discussions.

By staying friendly I've managed to shift him ever so slightly on all atheists being amoral monsters and I've taught him some basic critical thinking by pointing out logical inconsistencies in the nicest and least offensive way possible.

I hope one day to have a more open and frank discussion with him but I can't do that if he doesn't have the tools to fight back. By arming him with knowledge and the drive to be right instead of feel right he'll eventually move positions when his previous ideas no longer meet his metric for rightness.

It's a long process and it's really hard to not get defensive when he's slamming something I believe in or being incredibly racist but there is no move I can make that starts hostile and ends positively.

And don't expend the mental energy for people on the net. half of them are trolls anyway.

Is using "Julian Assange is a Hillary butt plug" an acceptable signature quote?
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#135665: Aug 18th 2016 at 9:45:32 AM

I have right-leaning friends, too, and have worked hard to build rapport with them. I agree that this is vital in the long term. I just don't see it making a huge difference in the short term.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#135666: Aug 18th 2016 at 10:03:37 AM

@Fighteer: I'm not particularly happy about the course of this election. Clinton is winning largely because Trump is horrendous; fuck if Johnson wasn't snagging a big chunk of Republican voters, it's entirely likely he'd be winning or at least close. A huge portion of the country is apathetic about this election and about politics and this particular match-up and the sheer hostility this cycle only makes matters worse.

edited 18th Aug '16 10:04:19 AM by CaptainCapsase

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#135667: Aug 18th 2016 at 10:05:04 AM

I'd take a libertarian over Trump any day, though under normal circumstances, this shouldn't be a good enough reason to vote for someone.

Leviticus 19:34
BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#135668: Aug 18th 2016 at 10:05:27 AM

I disagree with non engaging people on the internet. I've seen comments on You Tube videos relating to autism that were very ignorant, from people who clearly didn't understand what it was. I engaged in a polite way, sometimes meeting them halfway (e.g. agreeing with them that the many different forms of autism shouldn't all be given the exact same label, since they're not truly the same thing), and I've managed to end arguments sometimes by partially agreeing with the person's complaint. I've had a few people say they were wrong and they realized where I was coming from.

Also, public forums and comments sections are just that: public. A discussion you hold is being read by someone else unless it's limited to e-mail or private messages. Therefore, other people are watching, and they may learn something, especially if you come across as the more reasonable person who knows what they're talking about.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#135669: Aug 18th 2016 at 10:06:16 AM

They're saying that if Clinton gets elected, Obama will release evidence to get her indicted before she's taken office, preventing her from assuming the presidency. Since Kaine will still not technically have assumed the office of vice-president, there'll be no-one next in line after Clinton, which (supposedly) gives Obama an excuse to declare a state of emergency and assume a third term in the absence of a legal successor.

I gotta say, I kinda dig this image of Obama as a Francis Urquhart-esque mastermind using Clinton as his Unwitting Pawn, but it doesn't really mesh that well with the general conservative criticism of him as a naive incompetent.

That contradiction tends to be commonplace in politics. During the George W. presidency, conspiracy theorists - especially 9/11 Truthers - tended to paint him as a cunning, diabolical mastermind despite the way it undermined the general narrativeHey!  of him as an idiot dancing on puppet strings.

The biggest argument against any 9/11 conspiracy theory was always their reliance on the assertion that George W. Bush is both intelligent enough and competent enough to pull off such a scheme.

They're sorta in this bad spot where trump is essentially a cartoon villain (D-list, like batroc the leaper) but he's still technically a contender for the presidency.

I would sooner vote for Batroc than Trump.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/trump-us-intelligence-briefing-227109

"Donald Trump offered a blunt explanation for why he wants retired Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn at his side as he gets his first classified briefing at FBI headquarters on Wednesday — he doesn't trust intelligence information coming from those currently in charge."

It's funny that he blames our intelligence organizations for the war in Iraq when that was actually on certain GOP leaders like former President Bush.

And Trump supported it.

In any case, I stake even odds that Trump's going to shoot himself in the foot after this by openly discussing classified information in front of his constituency.

Doublethink really is such a powerful force with Republicans now. It's terrifying really.

Jon Stewart delivers a great demonstration of exactly the kind of doublethink popular with the GOP.

Donald Trump Courts Black Voters by Promising More Police

Article seen here:

Donald Trump delivered an unexpected pitch to African American voters during a speech on law enforcement Tuesday evening in West Bend, Wisconsin, accusing his Democratic rival, Hillary Clinton, of bigotry and claiming that more aggressive policing will make black communities safer.

"The war on our police must end and it must end now," Trump said, amid heightened racial tensions and violence in nearby Milwaukee over the fatal police shooting of a black suspect.

The Republican nominee said that anti-police critics have made police officers' jobs more difficult, which he said has come at the expense of innocent victims of crime. He called the "violence, riots and destruction" in Milwaukee that have emerged in recent days an "assault" on the rights of American citizens to live in peace.

"The main victims of these riots are law-abiding African American citizens living in these neighborhoods," Trump said. "It's their job, it's their homes, it's their schools and communities which will suffer the most as a result. There's no compassion in tolerating lawless conduct for anyone."

Trump - speaking directly to African American voters, though the overwhelming majority of his audience was white - accused Clinton and the Democratic Party of taking advantage of black voters. "The Democratic Party," he said, "has failed and betrayed the African American community."

Polls show Trump is extremely unpopular among minority voters, an enormous electoral liability for the candidate. His incendiary comments about Muslims, Mexicans and the Black Lives Matter movement have helped propel Clinton to wide leads in several key battleground states even as Trump continues enjoying strength among white voters.

Trump's own campaign rallies have at times featured violent clashes. This spring, amid heightened tensions over his controversial immigration proposals, several physical confrontations and assaults were caught on camera. The altercations often carried uncomfortable racial components; while many of the protesters were black or Hispanic, the wide majority of attendees at Trump's rallies are white.

During his speech, Trump said that anti-police critics have made police officers' jobs more difficult and have come at the expense of innocent victims of crime. He said that respect for the rule of law must be upheld. He added later that in Ferguson, Missouri, and in Baltimore unrest was fomented by false facts distributed by anti-police critics, though he did not detail what facts he was referencing.

"Those peddling the narrative of cops as a racist force in our society, a narrative supported with a nod by my opponent, share directly in the responsibility for the unrest in Milwaukee and many other places within our country," Trump said. "They have fostered the dangerous anti-police atmosphere in America."

Trump - who ad libbed at times but largely read the prepared remarks from a teleprompter - began his speech by thanking law enforcement officers for their service "in difficult, difficult, difficult times." He returned repeatedly to claims that violent crime has increased in American cities and said that the key to restoring safety in black communities is "more law enforcement, more community engagement, more effective policing."

At one point, Trump promised that he would break up gangs by supporting more police in communities, pointing to former New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani as an example of effective city management.

"Good policing saves lives," Trump said.

Trump briefly met with veterans and police officers Tuesday afternoon during a campaign stop at the Milwaukee County War Memorial Center in Milwaukee, including with Sheriff David Clarke and Sheriff's Inspector Edward Bailey. Clarke has been extremely critical of the Black Lives Matter movement.

Seeking to paint a contrast between himself and Clinton, Trump said that she would "rather protect the offender than the victim" and accused her and the Democratic Party of blocking policies that would keep people safe. He said that Clinton's policies have contributed to poverty and have put led to the deterioration of inner cities.

In addition to law enforcement, Trump also spoke extensively about increasing economic opportunity for African Americans and working class voters.

But although his speech was at times directly targeted at black voters, he did not propose new specific policies. Instead, he spoke largely of the policies he has already advocated extensively on the campaign trail, including negotiating international trade deals that protect American workers.

"No community in this country has been hurt by Hillary Clinton's immigration and all of her policies than the African American community. And she considers them a guaranteed vote," he said. "Now she is proposing to print instant work permits for millions of illegal immigrants to come in and take everybody's job, including low income African Americans. Not right, not gonna happen."

In short, Trump is saying that the narrative of police violence against black people is a lie spread by his opponents in the Democratic party and that, if he becomes President, he issues a promise to black people that there will be more cops patrolling their streets.

This is his argument intended to sway black voters into voting for him.

edited 18th Aug '16 10:08:20 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#135671: Aug 18th 2016 at 10:12:19 AM

[up][up]Not surprising when the audience looks like this.

Maybe it's my cynical side speaking, but I would consider taking fire to be a routine job hazard in an American city PD. Or one that deals with a lot of sovereign citizen or militia types.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
Ekuran Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#135672: Aug 18th 2016 at 10:18:18 AM

[up][up]Fucking finally, prisons of all institutions should never have been privatized.

speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#135673: Aug 18th 2016 at 10:19:25 AM

To address something on the previous page: John Kricfalusi once said that one course which should absolutely be taught in K-12 schools is reasoning and logic; that is, to be able to tell when somebody is feeding you bullshit or half-truths. Say what you will about the man, but I do agree with him on this point.

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#135674: Aug 18th 2016 at 10:36:36 AM

Regarding engaging the crazies: Capsase and Elle covered most of what I would have said, but I'd just like to reiterate that no one is asking anyone to walk into a neo-Nazi rally and try to teach them tolerance. Just don't call everyone on the other side morons who deserve to die. At best, it makes you look as bad as them (as was said, crazies aren't the only ones who see public discussions), and at worst it actually makes you as bad as them. I understand the need to vent a bit, but maybe admit you're not serious a little earlier.

Regarding private prisons: FINALLY. That was Saturday-morning cartoon villain level bullshit.

edited 18th Aug '16 10:37:32 AM by Discar

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#135675: Aug 18th 2016 at 10:55:39 AM

That's only the federal government though.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.

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