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CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#135626: Aug 18th 2016 at 8:07:40 AM

@Fighteer: Tell me, are you in favor of or opposed to the death penalty, and if so, why?

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#135627: Aug 18th 2016 at 8:09:31 AM

[up]We've got a whole thread for that particular subject.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#135628: Aug 18th 2016 at 8:13:00 AM

I try to avoid the topic because I find myself agreeing with points made by both sides. I was being hyperbolic anyway: I would not advocate the death penalty for Trump supporters — that's absurd. Nor are all people who have said they are voting for Trump white nationalists who get their information from Breitbart. But the ones who are are lost to reason and to the democratic process, and trying to treat them otherwise is only going to drag us down into the mud. Best to let them die off.

edited 18th Aug '16 8:14:58 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#135629: Aug 18th 2016 at 8:15:05 AM

[up][up], [up] That wasn't what I was getting at; I was using it as part of an argument that, in essence, if one is opposed to the death penalty under the rationale that it tends to make criminals more willing to go down fighting rather than be captured since they have nothing to lose, a similar problem can be seen in that sort of attitude; if these people should be regarded as being across the Moral Event Horizon, and should not ever be forgiven or empathized with, why should they even consider changing their ways, under any circumstances?

edited 18th Aug '16 8:16:19 AM by CaptainCapsase

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#135630: Aug 18th 2016 at 8:16:51 AM

You're taking the wrong approach. Is there ever any circumstance under which these people could be persuaded to change their views? If not, then why bother trying?

The cult of the alt-right cannot be broken by external information; it can only be broken from within by people coming to their senses. Attempts to inform them only drive them deeper, since one of the fundamental beliefs of the cult is that everyone who doesn't agree with them is either a vile traitor or a secret sympathizer who isn't willing to admit it.

edited 18th Aug '16 8:18:49 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#135631: Aug 18th 2016 at 8:17:08 AM

[up][up]

But the ones who are are lost to reason and to the democratic process, and trying to treat them otherwise is only going to drag us down into the mud. Best to let them die off.

Even the young ones?

Keep Rolling On
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#135632: Aug 18th 2016 at 8:18:43 AM

[up][up][up] Humans can and do change their point of view with time. You yourself are seemingly an example of this, having been a Libertarian when you were younger if I recall correctly.

edited 18th Aug '16 8:18:55 AM by CaptainCapsase

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#135633: Aug 18th 2016 at 8:20:06 AM

I came around of my own volition, not because of someone preaching at me. But we aren't talking about young people with malleable views. Many of them do emerge from the alt-right, blinking in the sudden daylight and wondering why the world doesn't match what they were indoctrinated to believe. Great, we welcome them to the world of the sane. There is no way to force the issue, though. It's psychologically impossible.

Meanwhile, these people do incalculable damage when given a political voice, as Donald Trump has done. This cannot be allowed.

Edited to add: Libertarians are relatively sane in comparison, anyway. I can at least talk to them about basic principles and manage a civil conversation.

edited 18th Aug '16 8:22:11 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#135634: Aug 18th 2016 at 8:21:37 AM

[up] "Meanwhile, these people do incalculable damage when given a political voice, as Donald Trump has done. This cannot be allowed."

They would say the same of people like you, and they are no less convinced of the soundness of their own logic.

edited 18th Aug '16 8:22:54 AM by CaptainCapsase

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#135635: Aug 18th 2016 at 8:23:16 AM

Then I'm very glad that people with my views outnumber people with theirs. At least the world we'll create is one in which they are invited to share in the prosperity, should they wish. Also, don't confuse "logic" with "reasoning". Textbook logic has absolutely nothing to do with their beliefs, nor do evidence or facts.

Edit: As for why their political voices must be denied, it's precisely because of the "opinions on shape of earth differ" mentality in the media that insists on giving opinions equal weight with facts. If places like CNN would put these people on display like zoo exhibits and give them the ridicule they deserved, it wouldn't be such an issue.

edited 18th Aug '16 8:27:04 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#135636: Aug 18th 2016 at 8:27:30 AM

I still feel you are being counterproductive by making these people into an "other" much in the same way that they do. Hatred, in my view, is an extremely unproductive emotional response, and I endeavor to (though I find myself failing in many cases) not view others with hatred or scorn. Not Donald Trump, not his followers, and not the numerous historical figures and groups who through their actions caused far more suffering than Trump has as of yet.

edited 18th Aug '16 8:29:10 AM by CaptainCapsase

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#135637: Aug 18th 2016 at 8:30:06 AM

I don't hate them. That would be giving them way too much credit. I pity them, I suppose. They live inside an insular, paranoid world and have shut out everything and everyone that doesn't agree with them. But the things they would do if given power cannot be allowed to happen, and I will take any measures necessary to deny it to them.

edited 18th Aug '16 8:31:02 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#135638: Aug 18th 2016 at 8:30:53 AM

I feel you and others here are dehumanizing these people to an extent, however.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#135639: Aug 18th 2016 at 8:31:31 AM

They have done it to themselves. I did nothing. And their ideology is based on dehumanizing everyone other than themselves. You're still at it with the false equivalence brush. There is no productive way to engage the alt-right. If you believe otherwise, you are welcome to attempt it, and if you succeed, I will apologize for my error.

edited 18th Aug '16 8:33:15 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#135640: Aug 18th 2016 at 8:32:47 AM

I don't have the time to hunt for the links right now but as a counterpoint to Fighter's argument, I offer the tale of a person who decided to try to have an earnest and sympathetic discussion with someone who was a follower of Gamergate (I know that's a banned topic in the Video Games forum, please permit me just as an example of the alt-right mode of thought). And it did help. The guy wasn't a ringleader or anything, just someone who thought he agreed with it who felt he had been put upon and that people were threatening to censor games and insult gamers and stuff, but they were able to at least reach a "I get why you feel this way but try to understand we aren't actually trying to oppress you" point.

No it doesn't work on everybody and no I'm unlikely to try similar myself because I lack the eloquence and patience, but it's not impossible.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#135641: Aug 18th 2016 at 8:35:30 AM

[up] There's a notable difference there. Some of the [banned-hashtag] folks were genuinely upset about perceived bias in gaming journalism; this is how the whole thing started, after all. But the others; the ones who made up the loudest voices, were part of the cult of toxic masculinity, and those people are mainly lost to reason.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#135642: Aug 18th 2016 at 8:39:55 AM

[up] Which is why one does not go about "reasoning" with these kinds of people in the manner one would approach a debate with someone of a more mainstream ideology. I have personally seen this sort of thing work with neighbors of mine and relatives who were very much absorbed into the right wing news sphere; the key is that you must, for the purposes of debate with them, meet them halfway (or at the very least, respect their opinion as equally valid as your own, even if you find it abhorrent) to start with, and gradually build rapport and trust (and a greater acceptance of critical thinking) before even attempting to change their mind on these issues. It's not something that's particularly likely to work on a conversation over the Internet however.

edited 18th Aug '16 8:43:07 AM by CaptainCapsase

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#135643: Aug 18th 2016 at 8:47:36 AM

I could use some tips for discrediting the right-wing pundits as a valid news source. My mom fits the category of someone traditionally Republican (but registered independent) who is turned off by Trump but she turns to them as "the other side of the argument" in the belief that, to paraphrase, yeah they're biased but some of what they're saying about Hillary has to be at least basically true, right?

edited 18th Aug '16 8:56:02 AM by Elle

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#135644: Aug 18th 2016 at 8:54:37 AM

[up][up] I generally agree with what you've said there. I should just point out that "meeting halfway" only works so far before I have to hold the vomit back. For example, folks who believe in the "Jewish conspiracy" that justified Hitler's annexation of Poland. What would you say to such a person that you met face to face?

edited 18th Aug '16 8:55:49 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#135645: Aug 18th 2016 at 8:54:40 AM

[up][up] And indeed, some of what they say is undoubtedly true, at least within certain limited sets of contexts. However, events in life are rarely (if ever) so simple and free of nuance that a person, no matter how educated, logical, and eloquent can encapsulate it in few enough words for your typical news program. Thus, in order to gain a better understanding of the whole picture, it is important to take into account multiple perspectives on the issue, including those you believe to be wrong. As many perspectives as possible in fact. Many people don't even bother to view opposed perspectives on political issues, and getting someone to do that is perhaps the best way to start.

[up] Smile and nod and agree that they are entitled to their own perspective and in general, don't be confrontational about it. Avoid that topic, and avoiding challenging their worldview, and instead focus on getting them to be more open to questioning their own beliefs on a smaller scale, and work from there. Critical thinking is a skill that can be taught like any other.

edited 18th Aug '16 9:01:51 AM by CaptainCapsase

Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#135646: Aug 18th 2016 at 8:55:22 AM

Politifact?

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#135647: Aug 18th 2016 at 9:04:27 AM

I've mentioned it to her a few times, I'm not sure she's actually gone to look at it. She also knows I don't particularly like Hillary but that I utterly dispise Trump and it's easier for me to argue why Trump is bad than why Hillary is tolerable. I mean, how am I supposed to answer the accusation that the Clintons had people assassinated? Or (as one friend told me, I don't know if this is widespread) that there were drug runners operating out of the Governor's mansion on Bill's watch? I can only point to the absence of proof and that's not terribly convincing to someone who doesn't know or care that burden of proof lies with the accuser.

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#135648: Aug 18th 2016 at 9:07:53 AM

Here's something I found that may be of help...

The Art of Reviling

In the 1930s, William B. Pettus, the president of the College of Chinese Studies in Beijing, came across a strange little Chinese essay. It began by arguing that, "having a desire to revile, should you persistently restrain it you will sooner or later develop some malady or infirmity. Therefore, having this desire, it is right to give it vent, and there is no harm in so doing."

However, the essay continued, most people lacked the skill that great reviling required. What followed was a list of tips and techniques for becoming a master reviler, "one who enjoys reviling and meets with no rebuff."

When Pettus published his translation of this book, The Art of Reviling, he did not know who the original author was. It was later revealed to be Liang Shiqiu, the scholar now known for being the first to translate the entire works of Shakespeare into Chinese. Liang also wrote light satirical sketches of Chinese life, of which this is clearly an example, but knowing it is satire makes it no less true or useful — especially in the era of internet comment sections, where mastery of the art of reviling is more important than ever. Here are the 10 keys to becoming a master reviler.

1. YOU MUST KNOW YOURSELF AND KNOW YOUR MAN.

"If another person has shortcomings, and you yourself are guilty of the same, in reviling him it is well to avoid mention of these."

2. DO NOT REVILE THOSE WHO ARE YOUR INFERIORS.

"You should select a person at least slightly superior to yourself... as soon as he replies... this brings you on a parity with him, as one pays no heed to inferiors... If, on the contrary, you revile a person of no reputation, the more you revile, the more pleased he is. The rule is that by reviling a man of no reputation you create one for him. Is this not a distressing sequence?"

3. IN REVILING, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH AND THERE ONE SHOULD STOP.

"When you are reviling a man of standing and he has replied, this is the place to stop. Should you continue you cannot carry the bystanders with you."

4. USE THE METHOD OF INDIRECT ATTACK.

"The more severely you wish to revile one, the more important is it to begin with expressions of pity & appreciation & even of respect and regret... the listeners feel that you are only speaking the truth and regard you as a person of poise & dignity."

5. PRESERVE A PLACID EXTERIOR.

"In ordinary street reviling the crowd regards the one whose voice is the louder and demeanor the fiercer as being in the right. But one who can truly revile is able to conceal his weapon until his antagonist's is wearied... when all energy is expended, he can retort in a few words, every one of which will draw blood."

6. IN REVILING USE CHASTE AND ELEGANT LANGUAGE.

"Prevent your antagonist from perceiving, at first, that he is being reviled... the more polite your expressions the sharper will be the sting. It is a good rule in reviling to incorporate in your retorts favorite expressions of your antagonist."

7. CONQUER BY RETREATING.

"When about to revile and you remember that you yourself have shortcomings, it is wise at the start boldly to acknowledge these in a thorough manner... You must bring yourself down to the humblest position. This prevents your opponent's bringing you down to a lower level."

8. LAY A TRAP FOR YOUR ADVERSARY.

"One experienced in reviling carefully notes his antagonist's every expression for those which can be returned with telling effect... by dropping an insignificant expression he will grasp at it and shoot his arrow... show him that it has lodged in a sandbank and that no injury results."

9. MAKE MUCH OF LITTLE.

"If a person deserves reviling, but the offense is of minor significance & scarcely worthy of reprimand... lead him into deeper water. Point by point use correct logic and endeavor to lead him to make illogical statements... When this is accomplished you can turn & severely revile him."

10. MAKE WAR ON THAT WHICH IS NEAR AND CULTIVATE FRIENDSHIP FOR THAT WHICH IS REMOTE.

"At one time revile only one person, or, if need be, only one class of men, or you will have too many adversaries. Attack your opponent, but do not involve the listener. If it is absolutely necessary to include a large number of persons, under these circumstances you should declare that in so doing you have the interest of all at heart. If you fail in this you will have an avalanche of reviling descend upon you which will be troublesome to withstand."

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#135649: Aug 18th 2016 at 9:09:15 AM

Smile and nod and agree that they are entitled to their own perspective and in general, don't be confrontational about it.

That's just the thing: I don't agree that they are "entitled to their own perspective". In my world view, a person is not entitled to believe factually wrong things. I can't stop them from believing them, of course, but neither do I owe them any inherent consideration. Doing so feels like patting a young child on the head and saying, "Of course the Tooth Fairy is real." You allow that for children because they have not developed critical thinking skills, so you try to work at their level. But how do you teach an adult human critical thinking if the very idea of fact-based logic is alien to them — indeed, shunned as a tool of the enemy?

edited 18th Aug '16 9:11:01 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#135650: Aug 18th 2016 at 9:09:16 AM

[up][up][up] In all likelyhood, you'll never be able to change her mind to the point where she becomes a democrat. If you can get someone to entertain the notion that other people's worldviews are worthy of respect, or better yet, that their worldview might not be correct however, they become vastly less dangerous.

[up] I imagine many of these people who outright deride critical thinking and logic have no idea what it actually is. In fact, they probably employ it to some extent in their own personal lives if they're not in a mental institution. Teaching adults is vastly more difficult than teaching children, but it's not inherently impossible by any means.

The real key in all this, in my opinion, is not to challenge a person's deeply held beliefs if you want to change them; it almost never works, and is usually counterproductive. As frustrating as it can be, that's something they ultimately have to do on their own. What you can do is (through various means) encourage the sort of introspection that leads people to challenge their own beliefs.

edited 18th Aug '16 9:19:03 AM by CaptainCapsase


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