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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#135226: Aug 14th 2016 at 6:09:04 AM

Obama at this point just wants it to counter China. All the additions that will screw over the people are just collateral.

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#135227: Aug 14th 2016 at 7:02:45 AM

Based on the Democrats' track record, I don't see Clinton sticking to substantive leftist policies in office just to keep the left on side. The Democrats have very consistently tackec to the centre-right; they'll blame the left for losing an election if it provides anything less than full-throated support (as they, and many people on this thread, are doing now), but they won't actually do anything to win its enthusiasm or reflect its principles, not when they can court 'moderate' Republicans and wealthy doners by moving to the right instead.

And that's not just Clinton. Obama threw away the opportunity for a public option in health care, and chose a giveaway to the pharmaceutical companies (albeit one with some good qualities as well) in futile hopes of getting the Republican support and looking bipartisan, and Republicans promptly spent the next six years doing everything in their power to destroy the Affordable Care Act. Instead of going with something more progressive and having stronger support from the left and the exact same amount of opposition from Republicans.

Clinton's supported free trade for decades, We have no reason to believe she'll change that position in office, other than "she says so now, under electoral duress".

Given the choice, the Republicans will always pander to their base at the expense of moderates, and the Democrats will always screw over their base. While that's working fine for the Democrats as a party, the net result is to move both parties - and the country - continually to the right.

I don't have loyalty to a political party. If Team Blue win elections and enact Reagan's policies, I don't consider that a victory, becuase it's still the wrobg policies. While I recognize that Trump needs to lose, that's not even close to sufficient. The Democratic Party needs to be moved to the left.

edited 14th Aug '16 7:04:15 AM by Galadriel

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#135228: Aug 14th 2016 at 7:07:56 AM

The Democratic Party needs to be moved to the left.

Good lord. No. They don't need to move to the left. They need to move towards what's practical and what works in the real world.

This is the same bullshit that got the GOP in trouble and why they've fucked everything they've touched

edited 14th Aug '16 7:08:33 AM by TacticalFox88

New Survey coming this weekend!
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#135229: Aug 14th 2016 at 7:08:49 AM

Have you tried shifting the Overton Window to the right in a fascist state? As in, doing so and have you, your family and friends or some combination thereof survive to tell the tale outside of a prison?

Has anyone actually managed to pull that off in Democracy 3? Now that's an interesting scenario for a Democracy game - try shifting the Overton Window in a certain direction in a totalitarian state without getting sent to a labor camp or dying "mysteriously".

edited 14th Aug '16 7:09:45 AM by Krieger22

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#135230: Aug 14th 2016 at 7:22:33 AM

But you're running the country in those games. Shifting to the right is the easiest thing. And if you piss people off (usually by shifting the window too fast) you don't get deported, or even imprisoned: you get assassinated.

[up][up]Left-wing, or, at least, well-thought-out Keynesian policies, do work out the best in Real Life. Wealth redistribution and a strong, efficient public sector are realistic, attainable, and extremely effective at improving overall wealth, safety, and happiness.

edited 14th Aug '16 7:23:51 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#135231: Aug 14th 2016 at 7:35:50 AM

[up]

Wealth redistribution and a strong, efficient public sector are realistic, attainable, and extremely effective at improving overall wealth, safety, and happiness.

By efficient, do you mean adequately-funded with as little disruption by politicians (and members of the public?) as possible?

Keep Rolling On
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#135232: Aug 14th 2016 at 8:00:31 AM

Of course! But this can only be achieved with strong, intelligent accountability, and sensible incentive loops. The USA federal government did marvelous steps in that direction in the sixties under folks like Paul O'Neil, who went on to have an amazing term as CEO of Alcoa.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#135233: Aug 14th 2016 at 8:11:27 AM

Keynes himself was a firm believer in the advantages of market capitalism over other economic systems, but understood (or revealed) the key role of government in keeping such a system sustainable.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#135234: Aug 14th 2016 at 8:11:39 AM

Riots in Milwaukee after Cops shoot armed man.

A Georgia officer has been shot dead Also a cop in NYC has been stabbed.

Iman and assistnt gunned down near Mosque in New York The cops say their is no evidence they were targeted because of their faith. However given that they were both shot in the head, I think it's fair to say this was not some robbery gone wrong.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#135235: Aug 14th 2016 at 8:22:40 AM

@ Handle:

Of course! But this can only be achieved with strong, intelligent accountability, and sensible incentive loops.

[lol]

Keep Rolling On
Ekuran Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#135236: Aug 14th 2016 at 8:53:55 AM

Green, you really don't need a refresher course on what economic policies people believe should be implemented here, you'll just repeat the reaction to Capsase where people will repeat the same minor to major squabbles they've already laid out with each other a dozen times before.

[up][up]Yeah, those guys were purposefully killed. Robbery my ass.

edited 14th Aug '16 8:54:21 AM by Ekuran

Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#135237: Aug 14th 2016 at 9:26:16 AM

A good minimum wage, strong unions, regulating banks so they don't crash the economy, redistributive economic policies, public universal health care, using the justice system for rehabilitation rather than only punishment, and providing supportive housing to end homelessness are all policies that do work in the real world, and are left of the US and, mostly, of the current Democratic Party. The most left-wing developed-nation democracies, i.e. Scandanavia, are the ones with the highest standards of living. My country (Canada) is not nearly so progressive as Scandanavia, but we're certainly better off than the US, especially in terms of health care, thanks to our public health care system.

So yes, move the Democrats left, so that US citizens can enjoy the better standards of living enjoyed by citizens of other developed nations. (And so that the US can stop attacking other countries, because US aggression creates a more dangerous world for everyone.)

edited 14th Aug '16 9:27:27 AM by Galadriel

FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#135238: Aug 14th 2016 at 9:31:33 AM

You define left one way. Others define left another way. See Stein for details.

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#135239: Aug 14th 2016 at 9:53:06 AM

RE: Imam shooting - while it almost assuredly wasn't a robbery, the police are investigating whether it might have been related to an argument one of the two had had earlier that day. On the plus side, "Police said surveillance video captured the gunman leaving the scene with his weapon in hand.", so hopefully that means they'll be able to get a positive ID on the person quickly.

With the Wisconsin riots, that's the kind of shit that gives the outright racists ammunition against black people and/or the BLM movement. "Oh, see? They don't care about "justice", they care about vengeance!" or somesuch.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#135240: Aug 14th 2016 at 10:10:54 AM

Why not just tell me what you disagree with Stein on? All I've heard about her is that she lends at least some support to anti-vaccine and anti-GMO conspiracy theories, and I disagree strongly with both positions, which are not "left" or associated with any particular point on the political spectrum - they're just fringe nuttiness.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#135241: Aug 14th 2016 at 10:11:07 AM

[up][up][up]That's not left, that's stupid.

edited 14th Aug '16 10:11:29 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#135242: Aug 14th 2016 at 10:17:13 AM

It is "left". "Left = good, right = bad" isn't how this works.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#135243: Aug 14th 2016 at 10:30:02 AM

[up] Indeed. "Left" and "Right" are relative positions, and come in plenty of different sorts. For example the left in Switzerland is different from that of the US.

Keep Rolling On
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#135244: Aug 14th 2016 at 10:47:45 AM

Being anti-vaccine is not associated with any specific principles associated with either the right or the left. There are individuals on both the right and left who support it, but it's just generalized kookiness.

The right and left are a spectrum, I agree. From the perspective of many other countries, the Democrats in the US are right-wing or centre-right, and the Republicans are just plain crazy.

edited 14th Aug '16 10:51:33 AM by Galadriel

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#135245: Aug 14th 2016 at 10:54:40 AM

Democrats...right-wing? Center-right? After the most progressive platform in the country's history?

lol, okay, son.

The rest of the world doesn't mean a goddamn thing when it comes to just how ridiculously complex the USA's system of local, city, state, federal governments all twine with each other, along with cultural and geographic concerns, that make a "one-size-fits all" approach not only unwise, but outright batshit fucking crazy.

What works in Germany, or Switzerland, sure as fuck won't work here without major tweaks, and at that point, it'll be something so different that the original concept is often lost.

New Survey coming this weekend!
GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#135246: Aug 14th 2016 at 10:54:43 AM

I believe Captain Capsase has right to be worried about many of those things. Global Warming is a problem that needs to be fixed immediately, unless you are happy with the continuation of record-high temperatures, flooding, and wildfires that the United States seem to currently be suffering from. It is important to note that the Democrats had not made rejection of the TPP part of their platform, and that Hillary Clinton is more than likely to follow Obama's and Bill Clinton's example in regards to free trade. Obama supports the TPP and Bill Clinton did favor free trade in the '90s. Should we not use her direct predecessor and, more importantly, her husband as signs of how Clinton might lean politically?

@FF Shinra: Yes, there is an insane left like there is an insane right. You know what else exists? A sane left and a sane right. From the perspective of the world, the Democrats are sane right and the Republicans are insane right. What the nation needs is a sane left and a sane right.

edited 14th Aug '16 10:55:36 AM by GameGuruGG

Wizard Needs Food Badly
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#135247: Aug 14th 2016 at 10:56:40 AM

[up]

What the nation needs is a sane left and a sane right.

If only to restrain the other when the other might be going too farnote ...

edited 14th Aug '16 10:58:27 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#135248: Aug 14th 2016 at 10:58:31 AM

The crazy right and left oppose vaccination for different reasons. Jil Stein's brand of crazy is certainly more prevalent on the left.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#135249: Aug 14th 2016 at 11:00:03 AM

From @realDonaldTrump

It is not "freedom of the press" when newspapers and others are allowed to say and write whatever they want even if it is completely false!

Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#135250: Aug 14th 2016 at 11:02:44 AM

Remember, it's only Freedom of Speech when it applies to what he says.

"Yup. That tasted purple."

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