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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#134476: Aug 6th 2016 at 2:18:52 PM

Yeah, any respect I might have once had for Wikileaks has evaporated. It's obvious Assange is being vindictive and even if not collaborating directly with Russia, a willing tool.

Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#134477: Aug 6th 2016 at 2:26:52 PM

Again, countries spy on one another. That's how it works. Turnabout is fair play.

So is busting these efforts. Brilliant tu quoque argument, by the way.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#134478: Aug 6th 2016 at 2:33:38 PM

Brilliant tu quoque argument, by the way.

Brilliant use of the fallacy fallacy, by the way. Particularly since in this case the "you too" is pretty justified. Almost all of America's major allies have at some point spied on them. For people to act like it's some sort of outrage for America to spy back is ludicrous.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#134479: Aug 6th 2016 at 2:39:51 PM

I think that the only people surprised were the Germans, they seemed to be genuinely upset, compared to pretty much all the other countries, who either knew/suspected already or weren't victiem's of spying (the other 4 eyes).

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#134480: Aug 6th 2016 at 2:46:11 PM

For people to act like it's some sort of outrage for America to spy back is ludicrous.

When you are the biggest power in the world, you are supposed to be smart enough not to get caught. When you are, you eat your humble pie and you don't behave like a prick saying "they started it", that just makes you look even worse.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#134481: Aug 6th 2016 at 2:49:16 PM

I'm not so sure a guy just flat out dumping tons of documents on everyone is "getting caught" per se.

But even then, a huge problem with the Snowden reveals is the lack of context to the documents. The spying on Merkel was from the Bush administration prior to administrative reforms from the FISA act. That changes the equation immensely.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#134482: Aug 6th 2016 at 2:51:15 PM

[up][up]And when you do get caught—as happens to all intelligence agencies from time to time, especially when someone inside decides to turn traitor—you respond by plugging the holes in your security. Which includes making sure that guys like Snowden are dealt with.

GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#134483: Aug 6th 2016 at 3:08:27 PM

[up] And guess what? The United States failed with that, completely and utterly. Sure, Snowden won't be able to gain more information about the United States, but he's also in one of the few places where the United States can't get at him. He can even make 'public' appearances outside of Russia via a very ingenious method of what is effectively a mobile device on an R.C. Car.

Wizard Needs Food Badly
Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#134484: Aug 6th 2016 at 3:19:50 PM

[up][up] But the Snowden outrage in the U.S., as I remember it, wasn't from learning that they spied on Germany, it was from learning that they were spying on their own citizens. It's quite hard to claim that you act for national security when you are watching your own - and not by specifically targeting possible foreign agents.

That's why you can't compare Snowden to a Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy mole. Before trying to "deal with him", you should start by searching where the fuck it went so wrong that spying on your own citizens became a normal procedure.

Artificius from about a foot and a half away from a monitor. Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Norwegian Wood
#134485: Aug 6th 2016 at 3:29:55 PM

So it begins.

http://www.vox.com/2016/8/5/12386128/trump-clinton-biased-polls

"I have no fear, for fear is the little death that kills me over and over. Without fear, I die but once."
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#134486: Aug 6th 2016 at 3:33:34 PM

@Game Guru

And your point is...? Yes, Snowden's hiding out in Russia like the treacherous piece of work that he is. This refutes the argument that what he did was treason and that he should be punished for it how?

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#134487: Aug 6th 2016 at 3:38:12 PM

I'm not so sure a guy just flat out dumping tons of documents on everyone is "getting caught" per se.

Except nothing he did could be described as "dumping", he worked with the press and tried to vet and redact documents properly to avoid damage. You want dumping then look at what Wikileaks just did, that's dumping, what Snowden did (even with all his other faults) was not dumping.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#134488: Aug 6th 2016 at 3:38:21 PM

[up][up][up]They should ask Romney's supporters how the "unskewed" polls worked for them in 2012.

edited 6th Aug '16 3:38:34 PM by Kostya

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#134489: Aug 6th 2016 at 4:01:23 PM

[up]...Wait. What the hell? That was a thing? Seriously? Romney's followers made up their own polls? (Only glanced at the headline of the article).

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#134490: Aug 6th 2016 at 4:04:41 PM

It is. The modern Republican party is completely detached from reality. If the facts don't fit into their narrative they'll invent new ones and believe them.

Doublethink is the new normal over there.

Oh really when?
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#134491: Aug 6th 2016 at 4:05:14 PM

They didn't go so far as making their own from what I saw. However they did assume the polls were biased and attempted to correct them in some way. After the election it turned out that the polls were accurate. They just didn't like them.

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#134492: Aug 6th 2016 at 4:08:22 PM

I don't have a sample size beyond an evening news soundbyte but Trump endorsing Ryan, et. al. isn't going over well with some of his followers.

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#134493: Aug 6th 2016 at 4:24:23 PM

...Should I care at this point? No, really, should I care? I am honestly asking if I should keep being worried about politics at this point.

I'm a 19 year old Muslim living in Baton Rogue and about to go to college (LSU). I've been avoiding the news lately because a lot of what the news is focused on is really stupid and I much prefer watching shows like John Oliver because, hey, he makes the usual stupid ludicrous and much more endurable to listen to. I honestly want to know if I should start watching the news again and try to find out more about today's politics or should I just focus on stuff I actually care about like Star Wars EU minutiae, whether BB:CF will get an English dub, and finishing the Codex Alera, Everworld, and the Animorphs.

Oh, and college. That too.

[up] Sounds like a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. Good.

edited 6th Aug '16 4:27:20 PM by fredhot16

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#134494: Aug 6th 2016 at 4:28:38 PM

[up]You should know enough to vote for Clinton because Trump wants you out of the country.

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#134495: Aug 6th 2016 at 4:33:49 PM

[up] Oh, yeah, forgot to mention: I'm going to be voting for somebody who isn't a racist moron (corrupt and old guard, maybe, please correct if I'm wrong) when elections come by. Just want to know if I should care or just wallow in political apathy until the election?

You know, this just reminded me of something: doesn't half of the promises that trash makes require Congress to pass laws to enforce said promises? Wouldn't balance of power have any significance against this moron?

Yeah, I don't like him.

edited 6th Aug '16 4:34:38 PM by fredhot16

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#134496: Aug 6th 2016 at 4:41:49 PM

@Ambar: Any sort of whistleblowing against a government is going to get said person on said government's shitlist, because whistleblowing is, by definition, revealing something that an organization or a government does not want people to know. Regardless of what the United States Government or you might think, I believe what Snowden did was morally right. There is a difference between what is legal and what is moral. If you refuse to either accept that or refuse to argue why it isn't morally right to reveal that a government is spying on its own citizens, then I'm not going to continue this line of conversation. You've said your opinion and I've said my opinion.

edited 6th Aug '16 4:44:52 PM by GameGuruGG

Wizard Needs Food Badly
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#134497: Aug 6th 2016 at 4:46:34 PM

I'd image that most governments spy on their citizens in some capacity. I'd have to know exactly what they were spying on and what measure and lengths they took before calling it "immoral". Most rights have limits on them, and I don't see why the right to privacy would be any exception, as long as they aren't sharing what they learn carelessly. Arguing otherwise just comes off as really naive to me.

edited 6th Aug '16 4:47:29 PM by LSBK

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#134498: Aug 6th 2016 at 4:49:40 PM

[up][up]Ssssoooo...how long is Snowden going to live in Russia? It's been about half a decade, maybe?

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#134499: Aug 6th 2016 at 4:50:28 PM

If the government didn't spy on citizens they'd have no way of catching potential domestic terrorists or mass shooters. Obviously there need to be restrictions but saying spying on your citizens is immoral seems like an oversimplification.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#134500: Aug 6th 2016 at 4:51:48 PM

Snowden is probably going to stay there indefinitely. He's got a cushy office in the Kremlin now. Why would he leave?

Oh really when?

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