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Cronosonic (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#134451: Aug 6th 2016 at 12:38:01 PM

[up] And get a Kangaroo Court like Chelsea Manning did? Yeah, I don't blame him for fleeing the country. The government would have tried to destroy his life completely like they did with several other whistleblowers and try to supress the information he had.

edited 6th Aug '16 12:38:40 PM by Cronosonic

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#134452: Aug 6th 2016 at 12:39:44 PM

Right. Kangaroo Court. Setting aside the tiny little facts that A. Manning faced a military tribunal and B. Plead guilty to the charges

This is why I can't take this seriously: The complete lack of facts or context in the area, and the tiny fact that before Manning, did any leaker face more than 30 months in jail?

edited 6th Aug '16 12:40:49 PM by Lightysnake

Bat178 Since: May, 2011
#134453: Aug 6th 2016 at 12:40:14 PM

[up][up][up][up] What about Ireland and South Africa?

edited 6th Aug '16 12:40:27 PM by Bat178

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#134454: Aug 6th 2016 at 12:40:18 PM

I'd simply suggest that Snowden could have fled to Equador instead of making pit stops in China and Russia along the way. He managed to get from the US to Hong Kong, Hong Kong to China and China to Russia before being blocked.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#134455: Aug 6th 2016 at 12:41:42 PM

It's truly astounding to me people think a flat out criminal who leaked top secret intelligence that might well have compromised operations against terrorists and human traffickers "should" have done something to evade justice and openly cheer him fleeing to a nation like Russia and becoming Putin's little sidekick.

edited 6th Aug '16 12:42:15 PM by Lightysnake

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#134456: Aug 6th 2016 at 12:42:06 PM

@ Cronosonic: And then flee to where? Northern Queensland? smile

edited 6th Aug '16 12:42:46 PM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#134457: Aug 6th 2016 at 12:42:07 PM

And a quick web search reveals that the DGSE—the French intelligence service—has been caught spying on the US several times, most notable when, during the seventies and eighties they planted a ring of agents inside of American tech companies and transferred stolen information to not only the French government, but to major French corporations.

Again, countries spy on one another. That's how it works. Turnabout is fair play.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#134458: Aug 6th 2016 at 12:43:31 PM

My suggestion is that if he was simply interested in not getting caught then what he did makes no sense, there are questionable things about Snowden, but they far from Assange levels of questionable.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#134459: Aug 6th 2016 at 12:47:44 PM

Look, if American agents are committing assassinations on friendly territory, that's one thing. But nothing Snowden leaked suggested that they were. They were collecting information, something that all intelligence agencies do, and which is hardly some massive and unprecedented violation of another country's sovereignty.

When they start pulling stunts like this one (done when Chile was ostensibly an American ally) then everyone can complain.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#134460: Aug 6th 2016 at 12:47:46 PM

My personal opinion is he was an activist who committed theft and rather than face the music, ran off to ong Kong, then leaped to the first country that'd take him. If he wasn't a Russian agent, he didn't plan that whole thing out well. Whatsoever.

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#134461: Aug 6th 2016 at 12:53:17 PM

If you're smart enough to get all of the documents he leaked, you SHOULD be smart enough to do it in a way that can't be traced back to you.

New Survey coming this weekend!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#134462: Aug 6th 2016 at 12:54:41 PM

I think this video sums up this thread pretty well:

edited 6th Aug '16 12:55:52 PM by LSBK

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#134463: Aug 6th 2016 at 1:00:01 PM

I think it's worth nothing that supposedly the opinion of intilligence officials and the Obama administration on Snowden has been softening over the years, at least insofar as admitting that what they were doing was overreaching. There's efforts in the works to convince Obama to pardon him before he leaves office and there may be a non-zero chance of it happening. Snowden has also been giving talks and working with researchers in US universities/companies via telepresence and continuing to advance the cause of digital privacy and hasn't been overly shy to criticize Russian policy.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#134464: Aug 6th 2016 at 1:05:52 PM

Obama could pardon him but would Russia allow him to return? There's also no guarantee he wouldn't be working for them.

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#134465: Aug 6th 2016 at 1:14:21 PM

[up]x5

My personal take is that Snowden the person isn't actually all that important at this stage. In an ideal world I would like to see a trial at some point, but I don't have a strong opinion on what the verdict should actually be. And if Obama sees fit to pardon Snowden, then I'll be willing to accept Obama's judgement on the matter.

What matters is that in a government where power ostensibly comes from the people (as is the case in the United States of America), there's a limit to what the government can do in secret and still maintain . Or in other words, the people can't vote, even indirectly, against government policy that they don't know exists.

I believe what the NSA was doing exceeded the limit of what the government should be allowed to do in a country where the power is vested in the people. I very sincerly believe the people had a right to know, at least in very generalized terms, the scale and cost of the governments data collection operations.

Does the fact the information got out there make the country less safe? Probably. But safety isn't everything if you want to live free.

edited 6th Aug '16 1:15:56 PM by Falrinn

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#134466: Aug 6th 2016 at 1:22:18 PM

Officially, Russia is ambivalent to him and at the time it looked like they were willing to let him stay just for the sake of making the US squirm. Unofficially, given recent events, it's harder to say but I think a lot of the colleagues that currently work with him would be willing to vouch for him. I don't think there's evidence that he's collaborating with Russia in their infowar against us, or at least none that us mere civilians have access to, so anyone saying he is is proclaiming guilt by insinuation.

The Obama administration's insistence on carrying on with the Bush era policies of domestic surveillance and such Patriot Act shenanigans is one of the main black marks (ahem, sorry) against him in my book. If pardons for Snowden and Manning were to come from his desk, they would considerably soften my opinion of him.

edited 6th Aug '16 1:23:58 PM by Elle

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#134467: Aug 6th 2016 at 1:29:21 PM

[up] People just seem to want Snowden to be pardoned and forget all the ways he actively set back important efforts because....well, apparently you can do this, evade justice for long enough and then everything's cool.

I mean, there's a huge difference between what Bush was doing in 2007 and what the NSA was doing in those documents. They were 'warrantless' wiretaps for a reason and I can think of two actual whistleblowers who exposed those programs. They weren't thrown in small holes, either.

edited 6th Aug '16 1:33:30 PM by Lightysnake

Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#134468: Aug 6th 2016 at 1:30:21 PM

People claiming the Assange rape charges are an excuse to extradite him are forgetting that if the US wanted him extradited, they don't need to go through the Swedes to do it. Not while they have that hilariously one-sided extradition treaty with the UK.

edited 6th Aug '16 1:30:36 PM by Deadbeatloser22

"Yup. That tasted purple."
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#134469: Aug 6th 2016 at 1:34:35 PM

Manning revealed information that put lives at risk, include those of people who had nothing to do with the US government.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#134470: Aug 6th 2016 at 1:41:28 PM

Meanwhile Snowden had the decency to redact names and personal details from his stuff, and publicly called out Wiki Leaks for not doing the same with the DNC leaks.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#134471: Aug 6th 2016 at 1:48:21 PM

Snowden's refuge plans: If I'm not mistaken Assange was in contact with him once he went public with the leak. He was apparently advised to seek asylum in Russia from the beginning, and not to get to Ecuador. Which does wonders for the suspicion of Assange having been turned by Russian intelligence.

I've said it before, but while I don't doubt that Snowden means/meant well, he was far too idealistic/optimistic for his own good. But he got off lightly for civilian contractors that got in over their heads.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#134472: Aug 6th 2016 at 1:49:34 PM

[up][up] Kinda sorta. Some of the stuff was so poorly redacted, the names could be found anyways. In addition, some of the reporters refused to reveal certain names for fear of violence resulting...Wikileaks published those anyways.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#134473: Aug 6th 2016 at 1:55:26 PM

Which technically just make Wikileaks look worse.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#134474: Aug 6th 2016 at 2:05:34 PM

I believe their excuse was effectively "it's not transparency if you don't doxx everyone".

"Yup. That tasted purple."
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#134475: Aug 6th 2016 at 2:10:42 PM

If they were serious about their neutrality they should have also leaked the RNC emails but nooooope, that ain't gonna happen.

Inter arma enim silent leges

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