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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#132676: Jul 26th 2016 at 12:04:42 PM

[up] What I'm saying is that accomplishing societal change for the better is impossible to achieve with at least some risk of that kind of outcome.

edited 26th Jul '16 12:05:28 PM by CaptainCapsase

flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#132677: Jul 26th 2016 at 12:05:25 PM

Sorry, but no thanks.

edited 26th Jul '16 12:05:44 PM by flameboy21th

Non Indicative Username
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#132678: Jul 26th 2016 at 12:05:55 PM

There's a big difference between protesting and actually carrying out a revolution.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#132679: Jul 26th 2016 at 12:06:06 PM

Liberal democracies have brought plenty of social change without turning to fringe radicalism and tearing down the entire system.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#132680: Jul 26th 2016 at 12:06:42 PM

It's an assumption to even assume there would be a country after all is said and done. Rather than multiple countries carving out their own territory and setting up little kingdoms here and there.

Anarchy is the larval stage of feudalism, after all.

edited 26th Jul '16 12:07:16 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#132681: Jul 26th 2016 at 12:07:18 PM

Bingo! That's the fundemental problem I think our culture's currently facing-everyone wants to "fuck the system" and very little coherent ideals beyond that.

Leviticus 19:34
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#132682: Jul 26th 2016 at 12:07:35 PM

Not all revolutions are violent. I'd in fact argue that the most successful ones aren't even called revolutions, because, rather than fight to the bitter end, those in power capitulated and accepted the demands of their constituents.

edited 26th Jul '16 12:09:06 PM by CaptainCapsase

flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#132683: Jul 26th 2016 at 12:09:07 PM

It doesn't need to be violent to be horrible.

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Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#132684: Jul 26th 2016 at 12:09:29 PM

A revolution involves overthrowing the old government and installing a new one. I cannot think of a single one that didn't involve violence or the threat of violence.

edited 26th Jul '16 12:10:24 PM by Kostya

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#132685: Jul 26th 2016 at 12:10:05 PM

[up][up] Modern society is already a horrible and brutish affair; it only looks good in comparison because of how much worst things were in the past.

[up] Google defines a revolution as "a forcible overthrow of a government or social order in favor of a new system."

The latter form of overthrow, that of a social order has been achieved numerous times in the past 200 years without the (violent) overthrowing of governments. The abolition movement (everywhere besides the US), the labor movement, the women's rights movement, the civil rights movement...

edited 26th Jul '16 12:15:02 PM by CaptainCapsase

flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#132686: Jul 26th 2016 at 12:11:35 PM

So please forgive me for being a little cynical about "revolutions." The best it can do is forcing me to remember the new establishment.

Non Indicative Username
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#132687: Jul 26th 2016 at 12:18:14 PM

[up] These kinds of arguments have always existed. Against democracy, against abolition, against gender equality, against civil rights, and so on.

flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#132688: Jul 26th 2016 at 12:18:34 PM

Sure, Cassandra.

edited 26th Jul '16 12:19:01 PM by flameboy21th

Non Indicative Username
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#132689: Jul 26th 2016 at 12:19:20 PM

Google defines a revolution as "a forcible overthrow of a government or social order in favor of a new system."

The latter form of overthrow, that of a social order has been achieved numerous times in the past 200 years without the (violent) overthrowing of governments. The abolition movement (everywhere besides the US), the labor movement, the women's rights movement, the civil rights movement...

Forcible means "by use of force".

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#132690: Jul 26th 2016 at 12:22:38 PM

[up] Or against the will of those on the receiving end. Moreover, there was plenty of violent use of force involved all of the examples I cited, along with civil disobedience which seriously inconvenienced those in power.

You may not like it, but to paraphrase Gahndi, if your protests aren't causing tangible problems for those in power, nothing will change except as it suits them.

edited 26th Jul '16 12:23:42 PM by CaptainCapsase

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#132691: Jul 26th 2016 at 12:24:20 PM

Protests are not a revolution. Stop equating the two.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#132692: Jul 26th 2016 at 12:24:30 PM

[up][up]I'm very confused as to the nature of your position at this point. So far as I can tell, it is,

"Despite being literally defined as violent, revolutions can and have been achieved without the use of violence, such as in these instances that involved the use of violence."

edited 26th Jul '16 12:24:53 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#132693: Jul 26th 2016 at 12:24:37 PM

Malcolm X did it so it's must be acceptable!

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Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#132694: Jul 26th 2016 at 12:24:49 PM

@ Capsase:

Moreover, there was plenty of violent use of force

As opposed to non-violent use of force? smile

edited 26th Jul '16 12:25:22 PM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#132695: Jul 26th 2016 at 12:25:25 PM

Revolution is a neutral concept. Change is neutral. The question to ask is what we're replacing the system with, and how that justifies whatever lengths we're going to to replace the old system.

Leviticus 19:34
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#132696: Jul 26th 2016 at 12:25:31 PM

So, the latest regarding the Fort Myers shooting - 3 men (19, 19, and 22) were arrested under suspicion that they were involved in the shooting that injured 16 and killed 2, 14-year-old Sean Archilles and 18-year-old Ste'fan Strawder, in what's assumed to be gang-related activity. Who they were actually aiming at is unknown, but fucking hell it's heartbreaking to read about.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#132697: Jul 26th 2016 at 12:26:18 PM

[up][up][up]I'm actually with Cassandra on that point. You can force people to do things by economic and political means.

edited 26th Jul '16 12:27:51 PM by flameboy21th

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CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#132698: Jul 26th 2016 at 12:26:51 PM

[up][up][up][up] Yes. Civil disobedience is a non-violent use of force insofar as it attempts to force those in power to acquiesce to a demand by harming their interests in a way that does not involve violence.

edited 26th Jul '16 12:27:07 PM by CaptainCapsase

smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#132699: Jul 26th 2016 at 12:27:11 PM

Captain, I genuinely think you're romanticizing the idea of a revolution. People who have lived through them know firsthand how awful it can be.

flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#132700: Jul 26th 2016 at 12:28:34 PM

Hey revolution formed this freaking country. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't like that word (but no commie, commie bad).

edited 26th Jul '16 12:30:05 PM by flameboy21th

Non Indicative Username

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