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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#132376: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:34:24 PM

Dude, wider contexts don't matter shit at this point. Trump either wins or loses. If it's because Sanders supporters didn't back Hillary then it's their fault.

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#132377: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:36:44 PM

The Sanders people that can't see enough of the big picture to realize that preventing the election of a fascist is more important than whatever pet economic conspiracy theory they hold dearest really ought to fuck off immediately and, preferably, never vote again. Their contributions won't be missed.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#132378: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:37:40 PM

Yeah we wanna be careful not to engage in the kind of political equivalent of Why Did You Make Me Hit You? violence-mongering (or rhetoric close to it) that's too commonplace among the radical left.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#132379: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:40:03 PM

Edit- Not that I think my post was offensive but I think it's best I take a breath and step away for a bit

edited 25th Jul '16 3:41:47 PM by Hodor2

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#132380: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:47:44 PM

@Alley: There's very little historical precedent for major reform happening "peacefully" except where it benefits the state and/or the powerful. I'm putting "peaceful" in quotes, because I don't count civil disobedience and in some cases protests as necessarily peaceful, since they are necessarily disruptive and oftentimes destructive; as Ganhdi himself pointed out, if you aren't causing tangible problems for those in charge, all the polite protests in the world won't extract concessions from them.

If Clinton wins in spite of everything that's happening now, I can only hope she has the means and the foresight to prevent things from escalating further, I really do.

edited 25th Jul '16 3:55:19 PM by CaptainCapsase

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#132381: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:48:51 PM

The DNC Drinking Game

Cause drinks might be needed if only because of all the crap adding up.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#132382: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:49:29 PM

Politico is trying to claim the convention has dissolved into chaos thanks to the Sanders fanboys. This actually true, or are they full of it?

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#132383: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:50:49 PM

[up] It hasn't. People were booing a bit when DWS was mentioned, and there were some sour grapes protesters. Vastly better than the disaster that was the RNC (the protests and counter protests were much, much bigger and there was that business with Cruz, among other drama), but unfortunately the media is playing right into Trump's hands by making out the democrats to be divided and weak.

edited 25th Jul '16 3:54:08 PM by CaptainCapsase

germi91 Public Servant from Spain Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Public Servant
#132384: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:51:11 PM

I would never wish ill for my fellow citizens regardless of their level of wisdom, beliefs or values. The citizenry as a whole or in part has the right to make mistakes great or small. More important is that it learns and progresses. Unless of course you rob them of that right.

"Men exist for the sake of one another. Teach them then or bear with them."

edited 25th Jul '16 3:51:23 PM by germi91

"It is true that we are called a democracy, for the administration is in the hands of the many and not of the few."
MysteryMan23 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#132385: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:51:23 PM

[up][up][up]The way Nate Silver's talking, the booers are a minority. A rather vocal and audible minority, but a minority nonetheless.

edit: [nja]

edited 25th Jul '16 3:51:45 PM by MysteryMan23

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#132386: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:53:23 PM

[up][up] Ah yes, that was the quote I was looking for.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#132387: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:58:21 PM

I haven't even noticed a lot of boos. They're probably intentionally avoiding showing them but they're certainly not being overly disruptive.

edit: Do we even have a clue how many of them there are? There are easily thousands of people in the hall. The Sanders people probably don't even number a thousand from what I'm seeing.

edit 2: I just saw my first Bernie sign. Now I hear a few people chanting his name.

edit 3: The current speaker just referenced Bernie. Looks like there's no major animosity.

edited 25th Jul '16 4:02:57 PM by Kostya

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#132388: Jul 25th 2016 at 4:04:39 PM

The floor of the convention seems to be fine. There seems to be quite a few protesters outside, but I can't say if there are definitely more or less then there were at the RNC.

The most trouble seems to have been at events outside the convention. Either way it does seem like the media is going to run with the narrative of the democratic party being intensely divided, regardless of how true it is or not.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#132389: Jul 25th 2016 at 4:08:36 PM

And that might be enough to cause real damage...the Democrats could achieve full party unity and all give the best speeches of the century and the media could still negate it with doomsaying.

[down]

edited 25th Jul '16 4:10:00 PM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#132390: Jul 25th 2016 at 4:09:08 PM

Don't let the truth get in the way of a good story!

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#132391: Jul 25th 2016 at 4:11:16 PM

Out of curiosity has anyone taken note of the general demographics of the Sanders protesters?

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#132392: Jul 25th 2016 at 4:16:22 PM

So are we back to the "Sander should never have run and it's all his fault if Trump wins, because he magically turned a bunch of previously loyal Dem supporters into Clinton haters who will throw the election to Trump?"

Sanders revolution bought us Clinton promises on a higher minimum wage, more healthcare and cheaper college. He bought a fair number of the far-left in line from the greens and got their loyalty and got them behind Clinton, stop blaming him for the far-left's self destructive idiocy, the far-left would have been just as self destructive (if not more) without Sanders.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Perian Since: Jun, 2016
#132393: Jul 25th 2016 at 4:20:25 PM

This is the problem. You're taking this as a given. I'm trying to explain why it's not, but your response has been "but this is true, ergo it must be true".
I've repeatedly given the reason for this: because Clinton wants to keep these donors for her re-election, so she can't piss them off too much. If I follow your stance, I might as well say that financing political campaigns by big money special interest groups is no problem - if they have no influence, why would it be? Needless to say, most people who study these problems would disagree with that. Even Clinton wouldn't go as far - she has spoken out against these groups in the past:
We have to end the flood of secret, unaccountable money that is distorting our elections, corrupting our political system, and drowning out the voices of too many everyday Americans.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#132395: Jul 25th 2016 at 4:22:31 PM

This is tangential, but Snowden's been talking about the DNC hack via Twittter, saying that if Russia was responsible they "should be condemned for it". The bulk of his statements are an argument for three letter agencies going more public with their evidence though which isn't really relevant to this thread. He thinks that if there's evidence, the NSA likely has it but is very unlikely to share it.

Apparently he's also not afraid to criticize Putin on said Twitter feed. Politically, he comes off as liberal-leaning though his main beat is cybersecurity and privacy and freedom of the press.

Edit: Off topic but really cool: Snowden-bot tours the US

edited 25th Jul '16 4:30:24 PM by Elle

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#132396: Jul 25th 2016 at 4:27:27 PM

He won't say anything of consequence about Putin though. Though its important to remember that Snowden=/=Wikileaks.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#132397: Jul 25th 2016 at 4:30:20 PM

I doubt any of the varies intelligence organizations would want to be seen as favoring one candidate over the other, nor would they want answer questions on how they got that information.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#132398: Jul 25th 2016 at 4:38:13 PM

Snowden is playing a dangerous game even suggesting that Russian should be criticised if it's responsible (which it is). Now I don't like how Snowden has acted during his stuff but I guess this proves that he st least has more morals than Wikileaks, though that's not a high bar.

Oh and as for the donors thing, donors will either give to a candidate who has supported them or one who has no stated view on their issue, that way they can sway an undecided because the undecided gets used to having their money and ends up supporting them.

Thing is Clinton isn't an undecided, she's getting big money backing for one reason and one reason only, Trump is fucking nuts. That's it, she's not going to worry about loosing the donors for 2020 because she's not going to have most of them for 2020 regardless of what she does, their support for this election is a one time "look we all hate Trump" bonus.

She's only get big money backing for 2020 is Trump was somehow again the Republican nominee, she's smart enough to know that which means she's also smart enough to know that she can happily screw big money a big because they've accepting that.

Big money are liable to have accepted that Clinton will hurt them a bit, but she won't break the entire system like Trump, so they're going for the lesser of two evils, same as many voters are.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#132399: Jul 25th 2016 at 4:43:12 PM

I've repeatedly given the reason for this: because Clinton wants to keep these donors for her re-election, so she can't piss them off too much.
Sure, but that's not my point. What you've been suggesting is that Clinton can't be trusted because she has two different policy priorities: her public stances that she uses to secure support from voters, and her private stances that she uses to secure support from big-money donors. What I'm getting that is that if she says one thing and then does something entirely different, then she'll be (rightly) crucified for abandoning her campaign promises and there's no way in hell she'll be reelected.

This is why you can generally trust that a candidate will at least try to do what they say they're going to do. The problem with big-money donors isn't that they cause candidates to have "secret" policy positions, it's that they cause candidates to change their public policy positions to something more big-donor friendly (though no one will ever admit that that's the reason for their position on that issue).

If someone talks about developing clean coal technology to secure the nation's energy independence and create Good American Jobs™, then you can bet that they're getting money from the coal industry. But they're still publically supporting the coal industry. If someone says "coal is an environmental disaster in slow motion and we should move away from it as quickly as possible", then they're almost certainly not going to support pro-coal policies once they're in office, even if the coal industry is (for some reason) donating to their campaign.

edited 25th Jul '16 4:47:40 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#132400: Jul 25th 2016 at 4:50:33 PM

Leaked DNC Documents Show Plans To Reward Big Donors With Federal Appointments.

This fucking election.

edited 25th Jul '16 4:50:50 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

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