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NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#132351: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:00:25 PM

that doesn't change the fact that having big money donors heavily restricts one's ability for reforms
This is the problem. You're taking this as a given. I'm trying to explain why it's not, but your response has been "but this is true, ergo it must be true".

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#132352: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:00:38 PM

It's also less than 10% of his base at this point.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#132353: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:02:15 PM

[up][up][up]You left out an important part of that story.

Five Thirty Eight has Clinton besting Trump this November in two other prediction samples, however.

It has Clinton’s odds at 53.7 percent, to Trump’s 46.2 percent, when it discounts polls taken immediately after last week's Republican National Convention.

Clinton’s odds rise to 58.2 percent to Trump’s 41.7 percent when factoring in economic and historical data.

edited 25th Jul '16 3:02:30 PM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#132354: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:07:03 PM

[up]I'm going with both of those odds, if only for my own peace and sanity.tongue

edited 25th Jul '16 3:07:22 PM by kkhohoho

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#132355: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:08:43 PM

Man, even Sanders can't bring his diehards under control. They boo every time he mentions Clinton yet stay silent when he brings up how dangerous Trump is.sad

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#132356: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:10:23 PM

[up] This is the 7% of his voters who threatened to defect to Trump. The DNC leaks certainly haven't helped matters, and supposedly there's going to be more coming each and every day of the convention.

It feels as if mass media is already setting up the narrative for November that "Bernie Sanders's supporters lost it for Clinton". Even with the leaks, it is still Clinton's race to lose.

edited 25th Jul '16 3:12:37 PM by CaptainCapsase

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#132357: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:12:50 PM

Sanders supporters speaking truth to power (Sarcasm Mode, obviously)

[up] And I'd say conversely, you are setting up the narrative that it is 100% Clinton's fault (and that she will lose).

I don't blame Sanders as much as his supporters, but I do blame him for pushing the idea that he could win far longer than it was at all possible- and at the same time, he implicitly pushed the idea that the only way he could lose is if the race was rigged. Now the Wikileaks have obviously not helped with this, but it's the reason why the Sanders people instinctively hate everyone who supports Clinton, even Civil Rights Movement heroes- because (thanks to Sanders) they think those people stole an election from them.

edited 25th Jul '16 3:16:37 PM by Hodor2

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#132358: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:13:37 PM

Well I'm hearing more cheers than boos right now. They just announced Hillary as the nominee.

SciFiSlasher from Absolutely none of your business. Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#132359: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:17:53 PM

Sanders can't really stop a train that's going off the rails.

"Somehow the hated have to walk a tightrope, while those who hate do not."
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#132360: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:17:55 PM

[up][up][up] It is, and always will be with campaigns except when something really unusual happens. About 15% of Clinton's supporters were refusing to vote for Obama at this point in time.

edited 25th Jul '16 3:18:04 PM by CaptainCapsase

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#132361: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:18:48 PM

Given the generous amount of "contributions" she's been getting, she may be pressured into returning the favor if she gets into the oval office.

I'm getting weary of this "Clinton has been bribed" narrative.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#132362: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:18:56 PM

But were they disrupting the Convention?

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#132363: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:20:17 PM

No, of course not. Sanders supporters for some reason feel uniquely aggrieved. I think it's for the same reason they see TPP as the civil rights issue of our time.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#132364: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:20:58 PM

Did I miss Bernie speaking? I was wondering what he'd have to say.

edit: I wish I could speak Spanish.

edited 25th Jul '16 3:21:42 PM by Kostya

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#132365: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:21:05 PM

[up][up][up] They were threatening to.

edited 25th Jul '16 3:21:10 PM by CaptainCapsase

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#132367: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:22:05 PM

[up]They might have tried and got shut down. A similar thing happened with the Never Trump crowd at the RNC.

smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#132368: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:23:12 PM

And this is exactly why I hated Sanders' obsession with the "political revolution". What kinds of people did he expect to come forward with that? It did nothing but cause damage.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#132369: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:27:16 PM

[up][up]

Well honestly I think that with that subset, almost all of them just eventually supported Obama. I think the subset that had racist reasons for opposing Obama just became Republicans.

But I think the difference is that despite their differences, Clinton and Obama and their supporters were invested in the Party and wanted a seat at the table. Sanders supporters aren't as much- the ones at the Convention want to flip the table (and maybe piss on it and set it on fire).

[down] I guess my tl; dr is that I don't want to blame all Sanders supporters, since the far, far majority of them are voting for Clinton. And while you intend to also, it does seem that the bad behavior is tied into the political views you are expressing.

edited 25th Jul '16 3:29:16 PM by Hodor2

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#132370: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:27:39 PM

Without a revolution brewing in the background, it's very rare for reform to happen except when it suits the needs of the poweerful. It's as simple as that. Thousands died in the civil rights movement, tens of thousands in the abolition movement, and uncoutable thousands in the labor movement.

It's unfortunate that things reached this point, but the blame falls squarely on the shoulders of those who refused to heed the lessons of history.

edited 25th Jul '16 3:29:44 PM by CaptainCapsase

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#132371: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:29:14 PM

And thousands more could die if Trump wins.

edit: Are there just not a lot of Sanders supporters here? I'm not hearing many boos. I was expecting a constant stream of them from the Sanders crowd.

edited 25th Jul '16 3:30:19 PM by Kostya

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#132372: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:30:24 PM

Indeed. But the blame for that falls squarely on the system that brought us to this point. More to the point, despite what news articles are acting like, this is an extremely small vocal minority. Most of us realize that, despite our issues with Clinton, now isn't the time to act.

edited 25th Jul '16 3:31:34 PM by CaptainCapsase

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#132373: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:31:26 PM

No, the blame falls on them. They can do something about it by electing Hillary. If they choose not to then it's entirely on them.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#132374: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:32:53 PM

[up] If you care to be so narrow minded as to ignore the wider sociological context in which this is happening sure. Go ahead. All of this has happened before, and if we once again ignore the lessons of the past, it'll all happen again assuming the human species survives the next round of global conflict.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#132375: Jul 25th 2016 at 3:33:39 PM

The boos were at an earlier rally, where Sanders tried to mollify the protesters.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.

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