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Nov 2023 Mod notice:


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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#131851: Jul 23rd 2016 at 3:24:29 PM

Surely you mean an Octavius?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#131852: Jul 23rd 2016 at 3:24:53 PM

[up] Yes, sorry. That said, either kinda works, and I associate Julius Caesar more with seizing a Republic than Augustus, even if things were actually started down that path by Sulla, arguably.

edited 23rd Jul '16 3:26:44 PM by CaptainCapsase

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#131853: Jul 23rd 2016 at 3:25:33 PM

FDR wasn't looking to be a dictator, no. Doesn't mean he wasn't one, either. Mind you, he only became one because of extraordinary circumstances (depression, WWII). If neither happened, he probably wouldn't have made it to the second term.

Personally, I'm neutral on the term limits thing, but in defense of it I'd say that a person already in office can theoretically consolidate support better than a person who isn't. Eventually, this might lead to a sort of self-reinforcing system where the status quo becomes unbreakable.

Leviticus 19:34
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#131854: Jul 23rd 2016 at 3:32:49 PM

[up][up]It's pretty much all Sulla's fault at the end of the day. Though I suppose that's a topic for another thread.

[up]It's never happened to us in Canada, and we not only don't have term limits, but we make it easier for the Prime Minister to have a compliant Congress. I didn't enjoy twelve years of Stephen Harper. But he never made himself dictator.

JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#131855: Jul 23rd 2016 at 3:35:34 PM

@No US foreign policy stomach for committing resources. The US government has been in a state of paranoid trauma ever since the protests adjacent the Vietnam war. Even before then other nations thought we were soft. Since then our own government has believed it. That's partially why we spend so much on our military. The idea is that the US not only must be able to win, but it must be able to win with virtually no casualties, or else our public will turn on the war again.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#131856: Jul 23rd 2016 at 3:36:52 PM

[up][up]Harper was in power for nine years. But Mackenzie King and Pierre Trudeau, who were in for longer, didn't become dictators either. Neither did Mulroney, who was in power for just under nine years, despite all my immense dislike for him.

edited 23rd Jul '16 3:37:40 PM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#131857: Jul 23rd 2016 at 3:37:22 PM

@Ambar/Rational: The Canadian system has a number of crucial differences from that of America; IIRC if things deadlock for too long, doesn't everyone get the boot?

edited 23rd Jul '16 3:37:35 PM by CaptainCapsase

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#131858: Jul 23rd 2016 at 3:38:08 PM

Only if the public punishes you in a post dissolution election.

edited 23rd Jul '16 3:42:37 PM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#131859: Jul 23rd 2016 at 3:39:11 PM

[up] Ah. Yeah, I'm not particularly up to date on how Canada works politically. That said, Canada is a parliamentary democracy, is it not? The circumstances which lead to dictatorships in those kinds of systems tend to differ from Presidential democracies.

Since a parlimentary democracy's executive branch is elected by the legislature, there's an inbuilt mechanism against dictatorship that doesn't exist in Presidential democracy, which means an executive holding power for a long time is much less dangerous.

edited 23rd Jul '16 3:41:31 PM by CaptainCapsase

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#131860: Jul 23rd 2016 at 3:42:05 PM

Yeah, party discipline in Canada is much stronger than in the US (and the rest of the Commonwealth). If the PM says jump, you jump or resign. And only the courts can stop a PM (though our courts are very independent and, unlike their American counterparts, apolitical).

edited 23rd Jul '16 3:42:17 PM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#131861: Jul 23rd 2016 at 3:43:52 PM

[up] How are courts formed though? The fact that the executive branch selects the supreme court tends to mean it's inevitably politicized.

edited 23rd Jul '16 3:44:20 PM by CaptainCapsase

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#131862: Jul 23rd 2016 at 3:48:41 PM

The Prime Minister appoints Supreme Court members from the ranks of the judiciary (usually, though if they hold a law degree and meet other prereqs that's enough) but that doesn't guarantee their loyalty. Most of the SCC is made of Harper appointees, yet they smacked down nearly all of his contentious laws.

Also, just listened to Kaine's speech. Pretty solid. If he can energize the Latino vote and win over a few swing states, he could be a real boon to Clinton. He's also less risky, which in a campaign where you can't afford a Palin dragging down your ticket is something to consider.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#131863: Jul 23rd 2016 at 3:50:07 PM

Harper was in power for nine years.

Don't know how I'd gotten that number wrong.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#131864: Jul 23rd 2016 at 3:58:28 PM

Cross posting from the Eastern European politics thread, Hungarian PM Viktor Orban has said that Trump as President would be better for Europe. Cause terrorism.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/hungarian-pm-praises-trump-as-beneficial-for-europe-1.2999412

I guess he really is a dictator, because democratic leaders aren't supposed to comment on each other's elections like that.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#131865: Jul 23rd 2016 at 3:59:16 PM

Just to give this thread some breathing room I thought I'd mention T hat OTC does have two topics on interventionism. A very old "Military Intervention in Humanitarian Crises" [1] thread and the slightly more recent "International Interventions and their comparability"[2] thread that did include discussions on what made a good intervention and if nations ever acted for selfless reasons. The second thread was incidentally started back when Shinra was the main person I disagreed with over interventionism, oh how times change. tongue

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#131866: Jul 23rd 2016 at 4:11:25 PM

He's also less risky, which in a campaign where you can't afford a Palin dragging down your ticket is something to consider.

I understand that Warren isn't comparable to Palin. To begn with, she is not insane.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#131867: Jul 23rd 2016 at 4:16:46 PM

@Captain - The Marshall Plan was post-FDR, so try again.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#131868: Jul 23rd 2016 at 4:20:04 PM

One big argument for Tim Kaine over Warren is that Virginia has a Dem governor, meaning that Kaine will be replaced with a Democrat and not a Republican, as would be the case with Warren.

Kaine has solid Dem credentials even if he's not a firebrand from the left of the party, he comes from a competitive state, wouldn't cost the Dems his senate seat and is of an age that he could run himself in time.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#131869: Jul 23rd 2016 at 4:23:45 PM

[up][up]He probably got it mixed up with the New Deal.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#131870: Jul 23rd 2016 at 4:29:29 PM

And Warren's history as an attack dog for the Dems, while exciting for the left and certainly useful for the party, does raise the chance that the GOP might find real or perceived skeletons in her closet.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#131871: Jul 23rd 2016 at 4:30:57 PM

I don't know about that. It seems like the biggest thing they have on her is lying about her American Indian heritage, and that's not even true. They still haven't let up on that either, last time I checked.

edited 23rd Jul '16 4:38:20 PM by LSBK

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#131872: Jul 23rd 2016 at 4:34:29 PM

That was my thought earlier.

Also, as much as Trump is a racist asshole for the whole "calling her Pocahontas thing" (as is whoever of his surrogates made a whooping sound in front of a crowd), her identification with non-existent Native American ancestry gives me pause. She's no Rachel Dolezal and it's popular for people to make a claim like Warren did, but I think it hurts her ability to effectively argue against Trump's racism.

Semi- [nja]. I could be wrong. I think at this point people pay more attention to the racist attacks on her than the fake ancestry, but I'm basing this on the sources I read- which are liberal ones.

edited 23rd Jul '16 4:35:47 PM by Hodor2

Perian Since: Jun, 2016
#131873: Jul 23rd 2016 at 4:54:27 PM

One big argument for Tim Kaine over Warren is that Virginia has a Dem governor, meaning that Kaine will be replaced with a Democrat and not a Republican, as would be the case with Warren.
The left would also have been fine with Sherrod Brown or Tom Perez, though.

About Warren's Native American heritage: it's a faux scandal. It's explained on her Wikipedia page:

In April 2012, the Boston Herald sparked a campaign controversy when it reported that from 1986 to 1995 Warren had listed herself as a minority in the Association of American Law Schools (AALS) directories.[62] Harvard Law School had publicized her minority status in response to criticisms about a lack of faculty diversity, but Warren said that she was unaware of this until she read about it in a newspaper during the 2012 election.[62][63][64] Scott Brown, her Republican opponent in the Senate race, speculated that she had fabricated Native American heritage to gain advantage in the job market.[65][66][67] Former colleagues and supervisors at universities where she had worked stated that Warren's ancestry played no role in her hiring.[63][64][67][68] Warren responded to the allegations, saying that she had self-identified as a minority in the directories in order to meet others with similar tribal roots.[69] Her brothers defended her, stating that they "grew up listening to our mother and grandmother and other relatives talk about our family's Cherokee and Delaware heritage".[70] In her 2014 autobiography, Warren described the allegations as untrue and hurtful.[71] The New England Historic Genealogical Society found a family newsletter that alluded to a marriage license application that listed Elizabeth Warren’s great-great-great grandmother as a Cherokee, but could not find the primary document and found no proof of her descent.[67][72][73] The Oklahoma Historical Society said that finding a definitive answer about Native American heritage can be difficult because of intermarriage and deliberate avoidance of registration.[74]

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#131874: Jul 23rd 2016 at 5:05:51 PM

[up] Beown would cost the Dems a Senate seat and Perez has limited expierance in high elected office.

Oh and in terrifying news, 536 has Trump at 42% to win the presidency, that number will probably change as the election gets closer though. Right now their state by state split would have Clinton win 279 electoral votes to 259 electoral votes, with Trump taking Florida, Ohio and North Carolina, but not Virginia. New Hampshire, Nevada, Colorado or New Mexico.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#131875: Jul 23rd 2016 at 5:10:06 PM

I noticed they have Gary Johnson getting a sizeable chunk of the popular vote. When that inevitably dwindles, it'll probably show who it's really going to go to.


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