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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#131776: Jul 23rd 2016 at 11:10:57 AM

Kaine has already made history...as the first Virginian nominated for vice president by the Democratic (or Republican) party.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/23/politics/tim-kaine-vice-president-hillary-clinton/index.html

tongue

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#131778: Jul 23rd 2016 at 11:27:56 AM

I don't have much exposure to Kane's background beyond what's been said recently but I'm tempted to call him something I rarely say: an honest politician. (Or at least according to Polifact's summary, mostly honest.) He seems to have a strong sense of values, he's Catholic but upholds the rule of law even when it conflicts with his faith and apparently has a reputation for doing what he says.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#131780: Jul 23rd 2016 at 11:36:53 AM

[up][up]Well, that deserves respect.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#131781: Jul 23rd 2016 at 11:41:18 AM

Hmm, I'm starting to warm up to Kaine more now. I'll have to see more of him but based on what I've heard I probably wouldn't be too unhappy if he eventually made a run for president.

JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#131782: Jul 23rd 2016 at 11:43:01 AM

I like this guy, but then again I'm hardly what you called a socialist, or someone on the far left.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#131783: Jul 23rd 2016 at 11:49:38 AM

Kaine seems just my cup of tea in general. Would definitely not mind electing him in his own right some day.

Perian Since: Jun, 2016
#131784: Jul 23rd 2016 at 11:50:00 AM

Have you actually looked at Kaine's record? He's not a firebrand like Warren, but that doesn't make him non-progressive.

To be honest, my knowledge of Kaine is restricted to a quick Google search, which already learnt me that 1) he recently praised the TPP and 2) he supports even further deregulation of the banking sector. It's nice that he is apparently very pro-gun control (which, let's face it, most Democrats are), but Sanders voters also want someone who is left-wing economically. Of course, maybe he is, and these two facts distort his actual economic stances and track record, in which case I'll be happy to be proven wrong.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#131785: Jul 23rd 2016 at 11:54:51 AM

I honestly don't care that much about who the VP is; whether or not they could be expected to have an impact on the election and in what direction is the real question. Kaine is the "safe" choice, just as Pence was the safe choice for Trump.

Safe isn't going to cut it here I fear; not for Clinton. Running a standard campaign will play right into Trump's hands; during the primaries, in quick succession he utterly demolished all of the standard campaigns of Jeb Bush and the like. Clinton's challenge must either be to turn this election into a battle of policy rather than personality, or somehow undermine his stranglehold on media attention.

FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#131786: Jul 23rd 2016 at 12:01:31 PM

Clinton didn't have a great pool to go with. Vilsack is essentially Kaine With More "Boring", Booker and Warren are needed in the Senate to get control back (Kaine is a senator with a Dem gov, so his seat is safe, unlike the other two), and everyone else is simply not qualified enough yet.

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#131787: Jul 23rd 2016 at 12:04:52 PM

Kaine is gonna laugh all the way to the nomination in 2024 UNLESS Booker and the rest of the Dem Superstars level up like a Wo W character.

New Survey coming this weekend!
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#131788: Jul 23rd 2016 at 12:04:56 PM

As much as the Bernie Bros may hate it, permitting a diversity of opinion in a political party is an important factor in keeping it healthy. That doesn't mean there aren't lines that shouldn't be crossed, but enforcing political orthodoxy gets you the current GOP on the right and communist dictatorships on the left.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#131789: Jul 23rd 2016 at 12:08:40 PM

There's also the fact that for good or ill anybody who runs with Clinton is going to be marked by that. If Booker or Perez or Castro or whoever want to run for president one day there's a case to be made that they need to stand out as their own men.

Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#131790: Jul 23rd 2016 at 12:13:32 PM

As much as the Bernie Bros may hate it, permitting a diversity of opinion in a political party is an important factor in keeping it healthy.

Why the heck would a "Bernie Bro" care about the health of a political party? Political parties have no value, they're a means to an end. The end being the implementation of whatever political ideas you believe in. A party that doesn't help you achieve your goals is more than a waste of resources, it's an obstacle.

Now obviously you can point out that this isn't very pragmatic, but I don't think the sort of person who wants to tear down society and rebuild it from scratch is inclined to think of things in terms of pragmatism anyway.

edited 23rd Jul '16 12:33:39 PM by Clarste

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#131791: Jul 23rd 2016 at 12:14:19 PM

Tactical, you are of course entitled to your opinion, but that kind of arrogance is an attitude that could cost the democrats dearly.

Like it or not, most elections come down to personality, abstract ideals, and promises over policy; the average voter on both sides of the aisle is not nearly as politically informed or engaged as any of the people here.

Clinton is not going to run away with this, even if she wins, and that won't be because of an imaginary (for this election) division in the democratic party caused by Sanders (the Libertarians' numbers suggest even greater division in the right), or because 50% of Americans are Neo-fascists. It'll be because, despite his dubious business credentials and nonexistent policy positions, there is one thing Donald Trump excels at, and that's salesmanship. If it weren't for his collossal ego that makes him totally unwilling to be a subordinate, I shudder to think what he could have acomplished working for politicians, say in lobbying.

edited 23rd Jul '16 12:21:00 PM by CaptainCapsase

Perian Since: Jun, 2016
#131792: Jul 23rd 2016 at 1:08:24 PM

As much as the Bernie Bros may hate it, permitting a diversity of opinion in a political party is an important factor in keeping it healthy. That doesn't mean there aren't lines that shouldn't be crossed, but enforcing political orthodoxy gets you the current GOP on the right and communist dictatorships on the left.

Which 'Bernie Bros' exactly want to restrict the diversity of opinions? These people are not calling for Tim Kaine to be ousted from the Democratic Party, they just wanted a running mate that appealed more to them economically than Clinton or Kaine do.

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#131793: Jul 23rd 2016 at 1:27:50 PM

Maybe using "Bernie Bros" as an example undermines my actual point. My point is that rejecting someone who is fairly progressive but not progressive "enough" can lead to Bad Things if followed to its extreme.

edited 23rd Jul '16 1:28:51 PM by Elle

Izeinsummer Since: Jun, 2013
#131794: Jul 23rd 2016 at 1:32:04 PM

.. saying he's a good pick due to diversity of opinion makes no sense -there's very little daylight between him and Hillary. Presumably, that's why she picked him.

At this point, I'd say that the best hope for some actual progress is to turn congress leftwards - Hillary wont be making any deals with the republicans, because they're very predictably going to vote no to any idea, policy or thought that can be traced back to her. That might force her left, economically, but that only works if congress has democrat majorities, and they're not too DINO. She doesn't need a supermajority, mind, because I figure she'll be forced to kill the filibuster if she wants any legacy other than 4 years of nothing whatsoever getting done.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#131795: Jul 23rd 2016 at 1:35:54 PM

Honestly, there's very little daylight between Sanders and Clinton. Free trade and the banks are the only real sticking points.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#131796: Jul 23rd 2016 at 1:40:29 PM

And Free trade and banking are immensely complicated.

New Survey coming this weekend!
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#131797: Jul 23rd 2016 at 1:40:39 PM

[up][up] That's leaving out the elephant in the room that is their respective foreign policy stances. Sanders was distinctly anti-interventionist, and was one of a handful of dissenting votes against the war in Iraq.

Clinton, by all accounts, is very much a subscriber to the sort of "realpolitik" philosophy that has defined American foreign policy since the Second World War. She's not nearly as incompetent about it as Bush, but there is a very significant difference of opinions there between Sanders and Clinton.

[up] Yes, but both are problematic in their own way; the financial sector (i.e. What Sandsrs usually was talking about) has absolutely exploded in terms of its share of the economy, well beyond a healthy share of our economy, to the point where the rest of the economy is being distorted to serve the needs of the financial sector. "Free" trade deals have little to no net impact on the economy of America; they're foreign policy tools and investor's rights bills.

When the foreign policy agenda in question is to reduce the volume of trade with China so they can be turned into the designated boogeyman when and if the US finally beats the Middle East into submission (and thus, has "won" the war on terror), there is a very good reason to oppose it.

edited 23rd Jul '16 1:53:23 PM by CaptainCapsase

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#131798: Jul 23rd 2016 at 1:54:45 PM

The last thing the world needs right now is a non-interventionist in the White House.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#131799: Jul 23rd 2016 at 2:01:06 PM

[up] Why though? The American Empire is the product of the "enlightened" times we live in (read: direct rule is no longer economically beneficial) not any moral high ground over its competitors, because I would argue no such thing exists in international affairs.

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#131800: Jul 23rd 2016 at 2:06:42 PM

[up] Do you want NATO to cease to exist, and the possibility of War in Europe? Do you want South Korea, Japan and other countries in the Far and Middle East to have nuclear weapons? That's the risk here.

edited 23rd Jul '16 2:07:40 PM by Greenmantle

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