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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
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KNEEJERK!? I spent most of my life desperately trying to swallow the pain of toxic collectivism like yours so that I could find some sort of mental peace with it, and you don't care, you're willing to torture me just because I disagreed with your argument that may as well be copy pasted from a 15 year old template. I made it clear how painful it was for me, sharing personal details to try to get the point across, and after dealing with the fear of a post like your for hours (which took a lot of effort) I asked to not have any responses. I got up earlier today than I wanted to because my anxiety forced me to check this thread, and I was very relieved no one had decided to go after me anyway. Then I check it once more before hopefully getting some more sleep, and there your post was. EDIT: Oh, and I NEVER BLAMED WOMEN any more than the rest of society for gender roles affecting men, but you not only blamed me for my own pain because I shared a gender I didn't choose with some people who enforce it, you decided to twist the knife by just pulling an accusation of misogyny out of think air to give me an anxiety attack.
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No, I will not be taking it there, because I don't fucking want to have this conversation. Posting here was clearly a mistake, the passive aggressive complete disregard for the feelings of anyone who disagrees that Ambar is clearly allowed to get away with is more toxic than direct flaming on the horrible message boards I'm used to
edited 15th Jul '16 9:33:11 AM by SNESMaster5
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I'd argue in fact that the problem is the opposite of people failing to dissociate from a collective identity. Presentation is a big part of the issue; the social justice sphere is for the most part extremely collectivist in contrast to our relatively individualistic modern Western society. when you say "men oppress women", you are implicitly assigning collective blame upon all men for each other's actions, which is completely valid from a collectivist point of view and invalid from an individualistic point of view. That's not a stance that plays particularly well with the generally individualistic ethos of modern society, for better or worse.
Until our society as a whole comes to accept that they don't live in a vacuum, and they they do in fact have some small amount of agency over others, arguing social justice using collectivist logic is at best, pointless, and at worst counterproductive, driving would be progressives and left/centeist libertarians into the arms of the alt-right out of fear of the red hydra.
edited 15th Jul '16 9:53:24 AM by CaptainCapsase
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This line of argument is counter-productive.
From some amount of personal experience, I know that sometimes the emotional side of the brain lashes out in defiance of reason and when mental illness is involved, your capacity to control that is severely diminished.
However well meaning the person making those sentiments might be, directed at another person who is going through or has gone through pain and struggle, what the other person hears is "because of who you are, your pain and your struggle means less/is irrelevant because you are privileged to not have gone through the extra pain and struggle of this oppressed group". To which the response is "you call this privilage? Fuck you, asshole."
(Disclaimer: I've probably been on both sides of the discussion, i.e. when it gets to the women in gaming stuff.)
If you're going to have productive discourse along these lines, there has to be empathy for the other person no mater their assumed privilege.
edited 15th Jul '16 9:35:40 AM by Elle
Clinton campaign: Pence 'most extreme' VP pick in generation
Really? Most extreme?
Pence is more extreme than Palin?
1) Ambar was simply trying to discuss the subject, as it is something on a public message board, and can therefore be debated if someone wishes to. That's how things work.
2) This should be in one of those other threads. It has currently nothing to do with US politics
3) Ambar wasn't attacking anyone. He was pointing out that being a minority in one area is not the same as being a minority in another. There's no "true ultimate super oppressed minority" because these things intersect with each other.
@130429
If your anxiety is such that a response to you in a debate is potentially dangerous to you, you should maybe refrain from participating in debates. Your positions aren't going to go unchallenged just because you have problems. Seriously, I've had points in my life wherein I've been suicidal, but you don't see me using that to try and shut down debate.
Once again, the statement "straight white men are privileged" is not an attack on you. Neither is the statement that "white straight men oppress the rest of society." Because we do. That's what being a part of a privileged class is all about. We can as individuals do our best to compensate for that, but that doesn't change the reality that we as a class have power that minority classes do not.
And once again, being a part of one minority group (the mentally different in your case and mine alike) does not invalidate our privilege as part of a different group (the white and the straight in your case and mine alike). You keep trying to say you aren't privileged despite being a white straight man. That's not true. You have privilege that you would not have if you were black and gay. That's a simple reality. There may be other areas in your life in which you are not privileged, but that doesn't erase the areas in which you are.
Now, it's been suggested we take this elsewhere. So let's do that. Or, if as you insist, you don't want to talk about it then stop talking about it.
@Elle
You miss the point where I noted that I have almost the exact same list of problems that the guy I was responding to has? I have sympathy. It just doesn't change reality.
@Oblong Reality
Palin hadn't really been in power long enough to do anything when she got picked. She's a lunatic but that wouldn't have been immediately clear from her record the way it is with Pence.
edited 15th Jul '16 9:46:12 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar
So if I got that Maddow segment right, this is the guy who was completely flabbergasted by the backlash against the "religious freedom restoration act" he signed in his state, despite the same thing happening in another?
"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."![]()
Yeah, he had quite the little breakdown over it. Trump is undoubtedly picking Pence to pander to evangelicals who've been doubting Trump's Bible cred, which is rational of them because he has none.
edited 15th Jul '16 9:44:22 AM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Indiana's RFRA was the straight up ALC boilerplate that lets businesses refuse service to any LGBT person on religious grounds.
edited 15th Jul '16 9:45:42 AM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"@Ambar
But that's my point. Palin literally had almost no record of anything, and suddenly was the pick to be a heartbeat away from being the first female POTUS. That seems more extreme, to me, than picking someone who's right up Conservative Alley, with a condo on GO Platform Lane, living in the Penthouse Jesus Suite on Right-Wing Avenue.
And Pence, assuming that all people agreed with him, was shocked by the backlash.
Not talking down to anyone. I'm white and I'm autistic. My whiteness doesn't mean I don't lack neurotypical privilege, but my autism doesn't invalidate my white privilege.
edited 15th Jul '16 9:49:05 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar
The other party is OTC banned now. If you can't have a conversation without lashing out at everyone you perceive to be oppressing you, then you don't belong here.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Actual last words on subject really this time: You may not think you're talking down but that's not how it feels to the person being so addressed, even if you claim to come from a similar background.
The conversation of how to hold conversations about privilege in a way that doesn't drive people away is probably one that needs to be had, but not here and probably not now.
People who are sufficiently invested in "the world hates me and I am therefore justified in hating them back" are out of reach and there is no point in trying. This explains many Trump voters and many "Bernie or bust" voters.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

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Hear hear to that.
The damned queen and the relentless knight.