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Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#130326: Jul 14th 2016 at 6:48:22 PM

I think I'm out of this thread for good. I'll return when I ever have the urge to read war crime apologia again.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#130327: Jul 14th 2016 at 7:03:43 PM

@Green Party donations are up: Great, now she's effectively swindling a bunch of people out of their money too.

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#130328: Jul 14th 2016 at 7:10:52 PM

So the headline of that mentions that donations are "up 999%" but if you scroll down to the actual numbers, they must have been pretty small before because it's more like $80k from probably a few thousand people. (No exact number of people given but it mentions that half of the donations are under $50 and about 615 people have donated $27, copying from Sanders' donation campaign.)

Hardly enough for the DNC to "panic" over. Headline is clickbaity in the extreme.

edited 14th Jul '16 7:12:56 PM by Elle

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#130329: Jul 14th 2016 at 7:12:54 PM

Those numbers must be wrong. If 80k is a 1000% increase they must have been getting less than 100.

smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#130331: Jul 14th 2016 at 7:15:34 PM

The 80k figure is "since Tuesday". It doesn't say whether the increase is per diem or the total war chest; if it's per diem, then less than 100/day seems reasonable.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#130332: Jul 14th 2016 at 7:17:32 PM

I really hope those people didn't need that money for anything.

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#130333: Jul 14th 2016 at 7:18:54 PM

$50 is well within an average person's disposable income. The people for whom that is not the case are probably not making donations to political parties.

People throw money away on sillier things. (Gambling, junk food, Call of Duty games...)

edited 14th Jul '16 7:20:05 PM by Elle

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#130334: Jul 14th 2016 at 7:20:28 PM

There are still better ways to spend it. If you want to donate to a worthy cause then give it to Planned Parenthood or the Red Cross or something.

edited 14th Jul '16 7:20:55 PM by Kostya

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#130335: Jul 14th 2016 at 7:25:26 PM

In any case it's too inconsequential to matter. If they start hitting million dollar figures, then maybe worry a little.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#130336: Jul 14th 2016 at 7:27:51 PM

I imagine the Libertarians are doing much better than usual, and from the sounds of things they're hurting Trump a lot more than Clinton. Which is good.

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#130337: Jul 14th 2016 at 7:34:05 PM

I imagine some of the "small government" conservatives are migrating over there. The current GOP has abandoned all pretense of such. In a similar vein, the anti-LGBT language in the platform proposal is apparently being fought over with Republicans from bluer states contesting it; such people might be attracted to the socially liberal side of the Libertarians.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#130338: Jul 14th 2016 at 7:42:58 PM

As I said, the Libertarian party will probably increase in strength due to Cool People Rebel Against Authority and the right in particular filling with anti-establishment sentiment. The Republican party has attempted to cater to these people at its own expense-not a wise move IMO. I was never especially concerned with a "small government" per say. I agree with free-market capitalism, but I'm still anti-abortion and anti-drug legalization, and fine with military interventionism and the existence of SWAT teams.

edited 14th Jul '16 7:45:16 PM by Protagonist506

Leviticus 19:34
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#130339: Jul 14th 2016 at 7:50:48 PM

@ Antiteilchen

Here's the thing—I don't like strategic bombing. I just don't know that any other options were better. If the USA (or NATO) had invaded Serbia itself you'd likely have seen even more civilian casualties, and a potential hardening of support for Milosevic. If you bomb Serb forces in Kosovo, you run the risk of killing the very people you hope to defend (this is why neither the American nor British air forces bombed concentration camps during WWII; the Soviets did on occasion, but what do you expect?). If there's an option that would have gotten Milosevic to stand down, while killing fewer Serb civilians, I'm all ears. As is though, with no other options readily available, I'm glad they did what they did.

Oh and for those of you (I believe both you and Handle wanted some) who wanted statistics? Here they are. NATO's bombing campaign of Yugoslavia killed between 489 and 528 civilians depending on who does the counting, in addition to wrecking bridges, industrial plants, public buildings, private businesses, as well as barracks and military installations. The Serbians, meanwhile, had already executed more than 3000 Kosovar Albanians and buried them in mass graves, in addition to other crimes. A UN report found the Serbs were responsible for "a systematic campaign of terror, including murders, rapes, arsons and severe maltreatments".

I'll note, by the way, that for a strategic bombing campaign, 500 odd dead is tiny, even minuscule, and that's without getting into the fact that it both got the Serbs out of Kosovo, and helped see Milosevic brought down shortly afterwards. Contrast the WWII firebombing of Dresden in which 22,700 to 25,000 civilians were killed for little cause beyond being German. NATO pulled their punches with the Serbs.

RE: Green Party

Having your funding go up by 1000% is one of those things that sounds impressive, but only means anything if you were raising more than $5 to start with. Also, Jill Stein seems genuinely crazy. I wasn't a Sanders fan at all, but the man never struck me as crazy. Dishonest at times, and too willing to repeat some of the worst of the right-wing Clinton stuff, but never crazy. Stein...she comes off as pretty out there.

edited 14th Jul '16 7:56:46 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#130340: Jul 14th 2016 at 8:07:41 PM

I have a blanket opinion of "stay the feck out of people's private lives" and let honest business do business (though I'm souring on complete laizez-faire and do believe strong accountability, consumer protection and contract laws are needed). I'm also a fan of things like libraries, public transit, art and science grants, roads and functioning police/fire departments however and there seems to be a very strong No True Scotsman vibe in the Libertarian party as it exists.

I'm for abortion on principle but would probably have a crisis of conscience if I was in the position of having to make that choice myself. I'm for marijuana legalization and at least the decriminalization for simple possession of others, though maybe not of their sale. I'd rather not have extra-territorial military intervention but if it must be done I'd rather it be done for truly just causes and with minimal dithering. I don't believe health care is a universal right but I'm willing to admit it has advantages...though I wouldn't go so far to believe our government would be competent at it.

edited 14th Jul '16 8:09:51 PM by Elle

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#130341: Jul 14th 2016 at 8:28:19 PM

Being an independent who values civil liberties the most and leans liberal on a lot of issues, while I'm not a fan of the absolute laissez faire side of things, I nevertheless like or tolerate enough of the Libertarian Party's platform that I would not mind them superceding the Republicans as the new party to oppose the Democrats. At least that way future elections have a semblance of what feels like an actual contest of policy rather than than choosing the lesser of two evils in order to stave off a group who wants to drive my country into complete totalitarianism and won't stop until people like me are dead or in chains.

edited 14th Jul '16 8:31:19 PM by AlleyOop

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#130342: Jul 14th 2016 at 8:37:03 PM

[up] The libertarian platform would be no less disastrous than the republicans; in their America, people like you (us?) would be in chains alongside white Americans black Americans, straight Americans, and gay Americans in the service of private tyranny. It's no less despotic than the GOP's vision of America, but less racist and even more classist.

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#130343: Jul 14th 2016 at 8:41:44 PM

If the Libritarian Party did become mainstream, they would have to become more moderate, I believe. The near-anarchy line they currently promote isn't palatable to many.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#130344: Jul 14th 2016 at 8:45:08 PM

I'm still not too thrilled about the idea of them getting real power. We already have to deal with one group trying to rip apart the social safety net and letting people act like assholes in the name of freedom. Why are the libertarians any better?

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#130345: Jul 14th 2016 at 8:47:31 PM

They align more with Liberals on social and civil liberties. Pro-queer, pro legal drugs, anti-religion, anti-censorship, anti-survalience, etc.

edited 14th Jul '16 8:51:36 PM by Elle

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#130346: Jul 14th 2016 at 8:52:45 PM

Yes but we're moving forward on those issues without their help. We need to address economic concerns. The Libertarians will throw up the same barricades the GOP did.

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#130347: Jul 14th 2016 at 9:07:45 PM

The GOP as it stands is doing their hardest to tear them down. Having civil liberties be a mater of general acceptance rather than a partisan issue would be highly preferable in my book, because they shouldn't be a partisan issue. That's the whole point of universal rights.

(Yes that implies that I don't believe that economic security is a right but like above, I'm willing to admit safety nets have their advantages.)

edited 14th Jul '16 9:12:18 PM by Elle

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#130348: Jul 14th 2016 at 9:10:52 PM

The libertarians aren't any better on civil rights in effect. Too many of them see civil rights as an impediment to business.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#130349: Jul 14th 2016 at 9:15:01 PM

Indeed, repealing protections against workers being fired over their race or sexuality is a big Libertarian platform. All to do with deregulation.

Oh really when?
GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#130350: Jul 14th 2016 at 9:19:22 PM

You know... If people are dismissing Sanders supporters, the Green Party, and the Libertarians, then who should be the Democrats' opposition if the Republicans do end up collapsing as a political party?

Wizard Needs Food Badly

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