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Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#130226: Jul 14th 2016 at 2:23:07 PM

I"m sorry, but it's ridiculous for you to insist that every decision of the United States government is based on selfish and/or nefarious motives. It's like you're taking the idea of rational decision making/self-interest to reach the absurd conclusion that altruisitic motives are impossible/totally absent from decision-makers.

Like similarly, I'm sure the decision to intervene in Serbia (and not intervene in Rwanda- a terrible mistake) was based on some calculation of United States interests in the region, but the fact that the Serbs were committing genocide probably influenced things a bit too.

edited 14th Jul '16 2:24:32 PM by Hodor2

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#130227: Jul 14th 2016 at 2:31:42 PM

not intervene in Rwanda- a terrible mistake

You don't make a long, exhaustive, and deliberate campaign of Would Be Rude to Say "Genocide", and call it a "mistake". "Ooopsie daisy, I accidentally went very far out of my way to stand by and not even call the horror that was happening by its name!"

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#130228: Jul 14th 2016 at 2:36:46 PM

Assuming that the US only acts in self-interest and not anything else isn't particularly true. Politicians are in fact, capable of empathy-and, more importantly, so are voters. The US didn't just support the UK in WWII for economic reasons, but because people of the US wanted to help.

Another thing is that it's not necessarily impossible for the two (self-interest and altruism) to coincide. It's quite possible to have both motives. For example, a person who sells food for a living can be motivated by both money, and a love of cooking-they aren't mutually exclusive. Or a better example would be a doctor, who can easily be motivated by both money and a desire to help others.

edited 14th Jul '16 2:37:44 PM by Protagonist506

Leviticus 19:34
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#130229: Jul 14th 2016 at 2:38:23 PM

Sure long term stabilisation investment is generally in the interest of the person who intervenes. But it's also a good thing and beneficial to the people there. Opposing intervention on such grounds is like opposing a life saving surgery because the doctor gets paid and should be doing it out of the goodness of their heart.

You don't make a long, exhaustive, and deliberate campaign of Would Be Rude to Say "Genocide", and call it a "mistake".

Sure it wasn't an accident, it was actually the fallout of Somalia, everyone became anti-intervention after Somalia, to the extent that they were willing the let the Rwandan people die because of it.

edited 14th Jul '16 2:39:49 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
OblongReality Unwanted Anachronism. Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
Unwanted Anachronism.
#130230: Jul 14th 2016 at 2:48:11 PM

Intervene and be called imperialist.

Don't intervene, and be called callous.

Kind of intervene and fuck everything up because you didn't do enough.

Kind of intervene and be accused of not doing enough.

Isn't being a punching bag fun?

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#130231: Jul 14th 2016 at 2:53:26 PM

Maybe you should stop listening to Russia Today and assuming that it represents the entire non-US opinion of the US?

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#130232: Jul 14th 2016 at 2:54:33 PM

You can't have it both ways Handle. Intervening in Serbia is bad, but intervening in Rwanda would have been okay?

Oh, and it wasn't just the USA that sat out Rwanda—the whole of the UN did. The United Nations—no matter what Dallaire did—refused to call what was going on in Rwanda a genocide. The French, in fact, actively supported the Rwandan government, and their security council vote meant nobody would be intervening with UN sanction. Other African strongmen supported this because they didn't want anybody intervening when they massacred their political opponents or ethnic minorities. And so on and so forth.

[up]I think they are complaining about Handle, who spent the last few pages condemning American intervention in Serbia and saying everyone should stay in their own backyard, but is now complaining that they didn't intervene in Rwanda.

edited 14th Jul '16 2:55:44 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#130233: Jul 14th 2016 at 2:54:51 PM

It represents the European, Canadian and Russian, Middle Eastern,Pakistani, and Chinese opinions well enough.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#130234: Jul 14th 2016 at 2:55:31 PM

@OR: You don't get to call yourself a punching back when you're the one dealing out the punches. That's preposterous.

@Silas: Nonsense. It's because the public would have demanded intervention that they kept misleading them, not calling it genocide.

@Ambar: I never said intervention in Kosovo was bad, as such. I said that the execution had lots of room for improvement. In particular, the deployment of cluster bombs was extremely questionable and had horrifying fallout for a very long time.

[up]No, it doesn't. For instance, Afghanistan is consensually regarded as a the right choice. If only Bush hadn't fucked up by diverting attention to Iraq, Afghansitan would have a solid, functioning state going on by now, and it would be thanks to you.

edited 14th Jul '16 3:00:24 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#130235: Jul 14th 2016 at 2:57:02 PM

[up]If you think the general American public cares what happens in an African country whose name they can't pronounce, you don't know much about the USA. The Clinton administration got raked over the coals by the court of public opinion after Somalia, because "how dare you send American boys to die for Somalians".

And your comments to OR are inane. If no matter what you do everyone complains you are a verbal punching bag at best.

edited 14th Jul '16 2:57:38 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#130236: Jul 14th 2016 at 2:59:22 PM

[up]x6 I view common soldiers as victims, not villains. Drawn in with the most noble promises and rhetoric, subjected to the hell on Earth that is war to line the pockets of those in power, then cast to the wayside and replaced with another person off the streets, with nary a thought to the wellbeing of those who bled and died.

edited 14th Jul '16 3:00:20 PM by CaptainCapsase

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#130237: Jul 14th 2016 at 3:01:07 PM

[up]X4 Bollocks. The people of Libya marched though the streets with US (and French and British) flags in thanks of 2011, the people of Kuwait love the US deeply for saving it from Saddam.

You're just as wrong on Europe, ignoring the fact that there is no European perspective on the US, can you name for be one mainstream European political party that has called the US imperialist for anything other than Iraq?

The German far-left are it, that's because they're idiots, some of the British far-left are similar but they are far from mainstream, even their current rising influence is in spite of their anti-US position, not because of it.

Hell name me a Canadian political party that's called the US imperialist?

Yes it represents China, Russia and the Middle Eastern people who suffer under US supported dictatorships, no shit, the first two countries are geopolitical rivals and the third group are suffering because of US imperialism.

[up]X3 The public didn't care, the genocide thing was a legal issue because if you call something genocide you have to act, don't pretend the American public or establishment woudl have cared if it had been called genocide, everybody knew what it was, but just like now they'd rather sit on their hands and let brown people die.

edited 14th Jul '16 3:03:02 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#130238: Jul 14th 2016 at 3:03:02 PM

In particular, the deployment of cluster bombs was extremely questionable and had horrifying fallout for a very long time.

The deployment of any bombs or shells has that potential. Given the number of landmines that the warring armies left across the landscape I'm honestly not sure the intervention made things any worse in that regard.

[up][up]That depends on the army and the war. A whole lot of the boys in the Wehrmacht and IJA, to pick an obvious example, were not innocent victims.

edited 14th Jul '16 3:03:17 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#130239: Jul 14th 2016 at 3:03:13 PM

[up][up][up]Eh, depends on how those soldiers behave on the battlefield. But draftees are certainly less responsible than volunteers.

[up][up][up][up]Do you want to spread democracy and lead the free world or not? Make up your mind! You don't get to spout altruistic, high concept rhetoric to justify atrocities one moment, and then claim selfishness and "what's in it for me" to justify carelessness and lack of commitment the next.

[up]Fair point.

A lot of German, military and civil, were not Nazis.

And I believe the US public do care about brown people killing each other, otherwise things like Kony 2012 wouldn't have been a thing.

edited 14th Jul '16 3:08:32 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#130240: Jul 14th 2016 at 3:07:44 PM

You don't get to spout altruistic, high concept rhetoric to justify atrocities one moment, and then claim selfishness and "what's in it for me" to justify carelessness and lack of commitment the next.

So because we won't help everyone we should help no one?

Let me repeat myself from earlier, the fact that I don't always give up my seat on the bus to elderly people is not an excuse to never do it, in fact trying to use it as an excuse makes me a dick.

Yes the American public are hypocritical, prone to giving no shits and often callous when it comes to the deaths of others, but every so often they and their political leaders are more then that, don't shut that down, the people who are helped in those moments of sanity would not appreciate it.

edited 14th Jul '16 3:09:35 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#130241: Jul 14th 2016 at 3:09:02 PM

A lot of German, military and civil, were not Nazis.

Which has nothing to do with the topic of whether the boys in the Wehrmacht committed war crimes. They did. Vast numbers of war crimes in fact. People who want to transform the Nazi Party into the sole villain of the story and exonerate the rest of Germany may find it fashionable to pin all the blame on the SS and other party organizations, but the reality is that the Wehrmacht was deeply complicit in war crimes and genocide both. A whole lot more German generals should have hanged than did, and a whole lot more privates should have spent time in prison.

And I believe the US public do care about brown people killing each other, otherwise things like Kony 2012 wouldn't have been a thing.

You are conflating "college kids" with "the general public". And they didn't care for long. As one of the speakers at my brother's talent show that year joked, "you'll forget this show like you forgot Joseph Kony."

edited 14th Jul '16 3:10:05 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#130242: Jul 14th 2016 at 3:10:55 PM

How about the few you decide to help, you commit to helping to the best of your ability, instead of dealing with their problems in the way of Godzilla?

As for Kony, they remembered him long enough

Of the five LRA commanders charged by the international criminal court in 2004, only Kony now remains at large. With only a few hundred fighters remaining loyal to him, it is thought that he will be unable to evade capture for much longer.[35]

That's a win for "college kids".

edited 14th Jul '16 3:13:42 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#130243: Jul 14th 2016 at 3:13:03 PM

[up]Now there's an over-the-top and non-helpful statement. Plus Silas is British so saying "you" in this case is pretty silly.

Did you miss the part in your own quote where Kony was charged in 2004 and remains at large? Clearly that Internet campaign was a huge help. Quick, let's start an Internet campaign about the evils of Kim Jong-Un. I'm sure he'll be out of power in no time. The power of angry college students will compel him.

edited 14th Jul '16 3:17:21 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#130244: Jul 14th 2016 at 3:13:36 PM

The best of ones abilities includes ones intellectual abilities. Nobody is saying that any intervention has ever been done perfectly, but there's a difference between "wasn't perfect" and "was such a fuck up the world would have been better if you hadn't even bothered".

[up] Meh we have our share of involvement, so it's a fair point. Plus I suspect it was a general "you".

As for the entire Kony thing, it was pretty much the definition of keyboard warrioring, where were the donations? Where were the marches? Where were the calls to Congressman? Where were the Peace Core volunteers? It seemed much more about dealing with their white guilt then actually helping.

edited 14th Jul '16 3:17:01 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#130245: Jul 14th 2016 at 3:15:03 PM

[up][up]Not if we're talking about Iraq, it wasn't, as well as other interventions the UK did along the USA, and just a self-righteously. Though you could always read it as the generic "you", which I intended.

EDIT: He remains at large, but his operation is in shambles, and he's hanging by a thread. You don't need to have caught Bin Laden to have won Afghanistan. Though it's still sweet if you get your hands on him.

[up]Thank you.

edited 14th Jul '16 3:19:32 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#130246: Jul 14th 2016 at 3:15:49 PM

The lack of US involvement in Rwanda versus Serbia is, in fact, the perfect example of the point I'm trying to make. The US had an agenda in the Balkans; demonstrating power projection being chief among them. It had no agenda in Rwanda during the genocide. The French did, and supported the genocide, because they believed their interests were better served by doing so. Look at the history of the US supporting brutal dictators, up to including those involved in genocide.

There is no fundamental difference between the patterns of behavior of the US (or Russia; or China, or Great Britain) and the behavior of the 19th century great powers, or any empire in history. What sets them apart is what their populations were/are willing to tolerate.

While the people comprising the decision-making apparatus of a state are (at least sometimes) capable of empathy, the impersonal nature of their job, combined with the sheer number of people involved means that the behavior of states are inherently amoral and selfish.

I don't like Henry Kissinger, but his assessment of the motivation of nation states, is spot on in my view.

edited 14th Jul '16 3:22:51 PM by CaptainCapsase

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#130247: Jul 14th 2016 at 3:18:43 PM

Unless they allow their population to be highly educated, well informed, and with a high-minded morale, and make themselves answerable to them.

Even then, secrets can be kept. Swedes were pissed when they found out their government lied to them, along with most of the world, about neutrality in the Cold War.

edited 14th Jul '16 3:20:32 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#130248: Jul 14th 2016 at 3:20:05 PM

He remains at large, but his operation is in shambles, and he's hanging by a thread. You don't need to have caught Bin Laden to have won Afghanistan.

And the operations that ultimately crippled his organization were started by Obama in 2010, two years before the keyboard warrior crowd knew who Kony was. If you want to give them credit for it well, I hate to break it to you but the timeline's off.

The US had an agenda in the Balkans; demonstrating power projection being chief among them.

No, the US intervened in the Balkans but not Rwanda for a very simple reason—the victims were white, and people at home were starting to care about it.

edited 14th Jul '16 3:21:14 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#130249: Jul 14th 2016 at 3:21:41 PM

Fine, then, a win for Obama. Though I'd like to believe that the "college students" were a factor.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#130250: Jul 14th 2016 at 3:24:14 PM

Not if we're talking about Iraq,

We're not, I've no intention of defending the Iraq war, what I was pointing out is that the world has opinions on the US that are shaped by more then just the Iraq war and consider the US' moral position based on more then just that.

He remains at large, but his operation is in shambles, and he's hanging by a thread.

Sure but is any of that because of Kony 2012? My understanding was that the campaign had zero real world impact.

The US had an agenda in the Balkans; demonstrating power projection being chief among them. It had no agenda in Rwanda during the genocide.

Yes the US is hypocritical and inconsistent with its given reasons everybody knows that, it's not some grand revelation, we all get it.

The fact that the US had an agenda in the Balkans doesn't change the fact that it helped people and did good.

Look at the history of the US supporting brutal dictators, up to including those involved in genocide.

It's getting better, not by much and not very fast but it is improving.

There is no fundamental difference between the patterns of behavior of the US (or Russia; or China, or Great Britain) and the behavior of the 19th century great powers, or any empire in history.

What a crock of shit. Yes there's self interest and hypocrisy, but we're better, we've been getting better bit by bit, even the Russians have gotten better, everyone has.

While the people comprising the decision-making apparatus of a state are (at least sometimes) capable of empathy, the impersonal nature of their job, combined with the sheer number of people involved means that the behavior of states are inherently amoral and selfish.

You are vastly underestimating the personal impact that a person or a group can have, look at the Blair-Bush memos from before Iraq, believe me the individual morality had a big impact.

No, the US intervened in the Balkans but not Rwanda for a very simple reason—the victims were white, and people at home were starting to care about it.

While I'm sure that was part of it there's also the circle of guilt. The US didn't act in Rwanda because it felt guilty about acting in Somalia, it then acted in Bosnia because it felt guilty about not acting in Rwanda, that action caused by guilt lead to Iraq being thought to be a good idea, which has caused a new line of guilt that means the US isn't acting in Syria or Libya properly.

edited 14th Jul '16 3:27:42 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

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