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TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#129951: Jul 12th 2016 at 11:22:54 PM

[up]

There's also the political dimension of the church. I doubt anyone was happy with the Papal States telling them what to do...

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#129952: Jul 12th 2016 at 11:23:54 PM

You can do baby steps. I don't think Tunisia is technically secular but it's secular enough that the Islamist party were willing to concede power and step down peacefully after loosing an election.

That's the thing, going from 0 to 100 without stabilisers will make you crash and burn most of the time. You can ease into it very slowly (the Kuwait model) or you can have stabilisers (the Bosnia and Kosovo model) but just relying on luck is more likely to cause chaos (the Libya/Iraq model) or a full circle revolution (the Egypt model) then a one in a million perfect shot (the Tunisia model).

edited 12th Jul '16 11:25:12 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#129953: Jul 12th 2016 at 11:41:31 PM

@ Shinra:

The alternative would have been the Iraq War ten years early.

Which was a possibility not covered in the numerous UN Resolutions against Iraq leading up to the First Gulf War in 1991. It probably should have been done then (as there were several uprisings against Saddam afterwards), but nobody was in the mood to invade Iraq.

Keep Rolling On
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#129954: Jul 12th 2016 at 11:47:28 PM

[up][up]One In A Million Chance, huh?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#129955: Jul 12th 2016 at 11:50:34 PM

Or you could end up with something like Malaysia, which kinda sucks for anyone who doesn't conform towards to their strict version of the state endorsed religion.

I wouldn't put, pardon the word, faith in an non secular democracy. Those tend to be inherently exclusionary of anyone outside the faith and pretty much end up fighting against secularism, specially because with the faith's influence in the government allows you to create a power outside the state but still able to rule its interests in the state.

Pretty much what the Christian ultra conservatives in the Go P would like to implement are federal level and end up implementing at state level when they restrict pro-choice rights, not to mention attempts to block anyone outside their faith to run for office or public positions.

Inter arma enim silent leges
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#129956: Jul 12th 2016 at 11:59:18 PM

I don't think anyone is arguing that these places would become fun places to live or have non-asshole governments. Thing is there's a difference between a democratic goverment of shitty assholes and a strait up authoritarian strongman dictatorship.

edited 13th Jul '16 10:03:10 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#129957: Jul 13th 2016 at 12:34:10 AM

there are plenty of alternatives between western style governments and brutal dystopia, FYI. But we should probably keep focus on the US....

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#129958: Jul 13th 2016 at 12:54:40 AM

Also as i show a good thing for church and state being separare is when they are join they going corrupt FAST, in fact many christians in US are getting tired of the religious right antic, as their atempt to control behivor with politics are getting closer and closer to what jesus preach agasint.

in short, getting away from the state kept religion healthy

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#129959: Jul 13th 2016 at 1:34:58 AM

I'd use India as a counterpoint to the idea that nonsecular democracies are necessarily bad - but while it's not secular as such, India is unambiguously pluralistic and its order is based on making sure that each of the various castes in the country gets its fair share of the benefits of government. Likewise, Lebanon is not really secular but pluralistic, because an explicit power-sharing arrangement between religious groups is pretty much the one compromise they could make that would keep the country from another round of civil war - and pretty much nobody wants that again.

So supporting a religious democracy with strong and strongly enforced constitutional protections for minorities, in an area where this is possible and where the local memes can get behind that, might be a positive step forward. However, in places where the locals can't be trusted not to fuck over other tribes the moment America looks away, it won't - exhibit A, Iraq.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#129960: Jul 13th 2016 at 3:23:41 AM

‘Secretary Clinton Is A Different Person Than Donald Trump,’ Says Bernie Sanders In Ringing Endorsement.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Demonic_Braeburn Yankee Doodle Dandy from Defective California Since: Jan, 2016
Yankee Doodle Dandy
#129961: Jul 13th 2016 at 3:28:59 AM

Donald Trump will showcase his vice presidential pick at a public event on Friday, multiple sources tell NBC News.

Christie, Gingrich, and Indiana Governor Mike Pence are all being vetted. Although considering this is Trump he might still have something up his sleeve.

edited 13th Jul '16 3:32:54 AM by Demonic_Braeburn

Any group who acts like morons ironically will eventually find itself swamped by morons who think themselves to be in good company.
DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#129962: Jul 13th 2016 at 5:22:20 AM

If I were Trump, I'd intentionally lead Christie to believe he's being nominated for VP, only to break his heart at the very last moment by nominating someone else.

speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#129963: Jul 13th 2016 at 5:56:20 AM

nm

edited 13th Jul '16 5:56:41 AM by speedyboris

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#129964: Jul 13th 2016 at 6:04:29 AM

Trump is a greedy, thin-skinned, megalomaniac fraudster but he doesn't hurt people for the sake of hurting them, I think.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#129965: Jul 13th 2016 at 6:19:10 AM

When it comes to the Iraq war vote, I think there was some wishful thinking bias thing on the part of the US congresspeople. What I mean is, they believed the "evidence" to be true in part because they wanted it to be.

Just like other countries immediately assuming it was faked, with similar bias.

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#129966: Jul 13th 2016 at 6:34:05 AM

[up][up]No, Trump hurts people inadvertently because he regards all other human beings either as tools for him to exploit, or as insignificant nobodies beneath his notice. That's so much better, isn't it?

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#129967: Jul 13th 2016 at 7:38:30 AM

Today's polling is rather grim looking. Trump is wining in Florida and Pennsylvania by almost 5, and is tied in Ohio in the latest poll from Quinnipiac That's not a prospect I find appealing.

ILoveDogs Since: May, 2010
#129968: Jul 13th 2016 at 7:42:46 AM

On the one hand, a lot of that looks too weird to be true (an eleven point swing?).

On the other hand, we can't become complacent.

megarockman from The Sixth Borough (Experienced Trainee)
#129969: Jul 13th 2016 at 7:48:29 AM

I figure that's the email thing showing up now.

The damned queen and the relentless knight.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#129970: Jul 13th 2016 at 8:03:51 AM

Yeah, the good news is that it'll probably be forgotten about by November after we've had a hilarious series of debates to showcase what a horrible person Trump is.

edited 13th Jul '16 8:04:01 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#129971: Jul 13th 2016 at 8:04:28 AM

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/bernie-sanders-clinton-support-225463

"No, it's not about the lesser of two evils," Sanders said. "If you look at issue by issue, we have Hillary Clinton who wants to significantly raise the minimum wage because we have millions of workers in this country working at starvation wages."

"Well, look, Hillary Clinton is not a perfect human being, and Bernie Sanders is not a perfect human being. And you know, that's the way life is. But I think what we have to focus on is, this is what I said yesterday in my remarks—it's not Donald Trump as a person, it's not Hillary Clinton a person," Sanders said on NBC, explaining that it was a question of the needs of middle-class families. The Vermont senator did not make reference to specific differences between himself and Clinton on minimum wage and on others, and as he did Tuesday, focused on the common ground between their ideas, vis-à-vis Trump. "Donald Trump wants to allow states to have the right to do away with the concept of the minimum wage. People could be working for five bucks an hour," Sanders continued on ABC. "Hillary Clinton wants to expand health care. Hillary Clinton wants to make public colleges and universities tuition-free for all families in this country making $125,000 or less. Trump wants to end the Affordable Care Act and throw 20 million people off of health insurance. Trump does not even believe what the entire scientific community is telling us about climate change and the need to transform our energy system.

Okay, got to eat crow on this one.

Didn't expect him to come out so explicitly.

New Survey coming this weekend!
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#129972: Jul 13th 2016 at 8:06:22 AM

I would hope, and yet there is a very real climate of generalized anger in the States and elsewhere in the first world. The degree of resentment among the (white) working class, the feeling that the left has abandoned them and the right has betrayed them, it's creating candidates like Trump.

edited 13th Jul '16 8:11:12 AM by CaptainCapsase

tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#129973: Jul 13th 2016 at 8:17:45 AM

Representative Ted Poe (R-TX) has announced he has leukemia.

I would rather have the President Trump from one of the Simpsons future episodes than this Trump. At least then everyone would be healthy, even if we had to deal with healthier criminals.

edited 13th Jul '16 8:20:19 AM by tclittle

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#129974: Jul 13th 2016 at 8:35:10 AM

The amount of disappointment amog the far left towards Bernie's endorsement of Hillary strikes me as frankly petty and petulant.

Likewise people who had such a hate-on towards him as long as he seemed like he could even remotely threaten Hillary's nomination/election, and who now are cool with him, make me uncomfortable.

Sanders has been very consistent about what he was about, and what he was doing. These reactions of betrayal on one hand and reconciliation on the other strike me as the opposite of consistent or principled.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
TheWanted Since: Oct, 2013
#129975: Jul 13th 2016 at 8:37:59 AM

I'm going to call it now. Trump will win. Just because we tend to seesaw back and forth between democrats and republicans for the presidency. We might end up with Hillary winning with her promising to be another four more years of Obama then be deafeated in 2020, similar to what happened to Bush senior and Reagan.

edited 13th Jul '16 8:39:58 AM by TheWanted


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