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CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#129651: Jul 11th 2016 at 6:41:24 PM

@rational: You know, I recall a while back that the only way Trump could possibly win this election is if things started getting really violent with an explicit link to the election and people stayed home out of fear. If I recall my 1930's history correctly, that's a big part of how Hitler came to power. Well that and the German communists refused to collaborate with the liberals to keep Hitler out of power due to pressure from the Soviet Union not to compromise.

edited 11th Jul '16 6:41:30 PM by CaptainCapsase

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#129652: Jul 11th 2016 at 6:52:07 PM

I mean, the problem is that just about everyone appears to think that America is perpetually Germany in the 30's. But that is at least partially correct. Other parties failed to unite against him (IIRC, the Communists declared that they'd rather see Hitler take office than allow liberals to), and violence scared a lot of people into not voting. However, Hitler was never elected legally. He did get enough popularity to scare other politicians such that they kicked Hitler upstairs-which later backfired horribly.

Leviticus 19:34
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#129653: Jul 11th 2016 at 6:54:59 PM

[up] Of course, we're not living in 1930's Germany, so this is something that shouldn't happen. That said, in the past few years, there's been quite a few such occurrences. As far as Hitler never legally being elected, he wasn't, but his party was; Germany was and is a parlimentary system. Moreover, acting as if things are just politics as usual in the face of a political crisis a good way to move towards 1930s Germany.

edited 11th Jul '16 6:59:59 PM by CaptainCapsase

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#129654: Jul 11th 2016 at 7:00:48 PM

[up][up][up]I was taught the rough outlines of world religions too, in world history. Nothing majorly doctrinal though.

edited 11th Jul '16 7:01:17 PM by Elle

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#129655: Jul 11th 2016 at 7:07:06 PM

When I took history classes, I'm usually taught a few aspects of religions that come out of a society. With the US, I'd say it'd make sense to talk about groups like the Puritans.

I never took a comparative religion class, though I have read a book on comparative religion before (Handbook of Today's Religions" I think it was called). I enjoyed it.

Leviticus 19:34
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#129656: Jul 11th 2016 at 7:18:09 PM

Latest details from the Michigan shooting is that the shooter was an inmate being transfered from a holding cell who got a hold of an officer's gun. He was there on charges of criminal sexual conduct, kidnapping, assault and domestic violence. He was also white, according to his mugshot. Link.

JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#129657: Jul 11th 2016 at 7:27:40 PM

The US women's Gymnastic team will animate the competition You know it's Olympics season when even Vox can be seen as vaguely jingoistic.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#129658: Jul 11th 2016 at 7:58:29 PM

Essay from a black ex-cop on how systemic racisim can proliferate a police department: http://www.vox.com/2015/5/28/8661977/race-police-officer

"On any given day, in any police department in the nation, 15 percent of officers will do the right thing no matter what is happening. Fifteen percent of officers will abuse their authority at every opportunity. The remaining 70 percent could go either way depending on whom they are working with. (...) In the absence of any real effort to challenge department cultures, they become part of the problem. If their command ranks are racist or allow institutional racism to persist, or if a number of officers in their department are racist, they may end up doing terrible things."

NickTheSwing Since: Aug, 2009
#129659: Jul 11th 2016 at 9:32:04 PM

I am reading the GOP platform and...damn it's like reading about history leading up to World War II. I mean peace through strength is blatant, and these unending "greatest in the world" mentions are uncomfortable in this context....

And I just saw treating "the troops" with "utmost respect and dignity", as well as not releasing any secrets or information that could "endanger them". Like any war crimes they've done.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#129660: Jul 11th 2016 at 9:51:02 PM

[up]This is exactly what I'm talking about-people are always eager to declare that we're on the edge of dystopia, often by drawing vague comparisons to 1930's Germany.

Leviticus 19:34
Matues Since: Sep, 2011
#129661: Jul 11th 2016 at 9:56:15 PM

Well the GOP is kind of a bit behind the times.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#129662: Jul 11th 2016 at 10:02:26 PM

The main reason fascists rose to power in 1930's Germany was because the economy was in the craper, so people proposing a radical new solution to economic malaise gained a lot of traction. Given the U.S. economy is doing okay right now, I don't really see the comparison.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#129663: Jul 11th 2016 at 10:10:23 PM

I can see how people can draw the parallels but the problem is different. These aren't normal people who are desperate and disillusioned. The alt right fascists, and white supremacists have always been here. They've finally got someone speaking directly without any dog whistles or code words to rally behind. They're angry that America isn't white yet and now they want blood.

This election, the racial tensions, the police shooting people, etc. All these are problems we sorta swept under the rug and tried to pretend weren't important and now it's all coming to a head.

Oh really when?
NickTheSwing Since: Aug, 2009
#129664: Jul 11th 2016 at 10:14:57 PM

[up][up][up] Its difficult for me to just nod and say we're doing fine and not in such danger when a random police officer decided to exercise his power over people by randomly threatening a child. Good that he was removed, Bad because he'll probably get another cozy police job with much more overtly racist / fascist department(s).

There's also the fact Snowden revealed covered up warcrimes and people killing doctors so as to cover up their crimes.

So apologies if I cannot help but view our oh so honorable and loyal defenders a little more...darkly.

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#129665: Jul 11th 2016 at 10:27:15 PM

It's not Germany levels of bad but there's still a low-level malaise going back to the 2008 crash and the bitterness from the fallout of it. It's more obvious in the left-wing rhetoric (Bernie, "Wall Street got bailed out, we got sold out") but not absent on the right (our jobs got outsourced!).

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#129666: Jul 11th 2016 at 10:31:34 PM

I mean, to be fair, Trump's ideology is pseudo-fascist. I would argue he's technically not a fascist, though there's a non-trivial overlap in his ideology and fascism (namely in that he uses xenophobia as a "unifying" force and seperates himself from "politics as usual". "The Republicrats want to take away your freedom to worship me! If only we could unite against Muslims or something...").

The cause of the rise of Trump has to do with two major problems in our society: Political Correctness Gone Mad (and disproportionate backlash to it) and disillusionment with the Establishment. Basically, people are so upset with Washington DC and Political Correctness that they view a person like Trump as better by comparison just because he'll shake things up. Trump is the end result of how modern society views politics-everyone is encouraged to imagine the establishment as a system that is under the complete control of a faceless evil that has no interests other than to cause problems for them, and doesn't seek to address any problem that actually exists. In this context, Trump's popularity makes sense-he's outside the system, and one of the only people who can properly overthrow the oppressive system.

Tl;Dr: Trump exists because of our tendency to Godwin people.

Leviticus 19:34
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#129667: Jul 11th 2016 at 10:32:34 PM

Also keep in mind that the rise of the Nazis took a lot more then one election, first they had to become the largest party and form a goverment by allying with another party, then there was the Reichstag fire and the crackdown on all opposition groups, then there was another election where despite the crackdown on other parties the Nazis again didn't have a majority, the Nazis then locked up all the communists that got election, rounded up some of the socialists (and caused others to flee) before allying with the three other parties that won seats and passing the Enabling Act.

Hitler never properly won an election on a Nazi platform, he always had to ally with at least one other party to form a goverment, even after the campaign of SS violence that was unleashed before the March 33 election.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#129668: Jul 11th 2016 at 10:34:12 PM

[up][up]I'd say it's the opposite. We didn't crush groups like the Klan and the Oathkeepers like we should have. We let them quietly grow and their ideas become normalized.

To keep people like Trump from showing up we have to maintain constant vigilance and we can't be afraid to drag people through the mud and shame them for bigoted beliefs.

edited 11th Jul '16 10:34:31 PM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#129669: Jul 11th 2016 at 10:40:18 PM

Newt Gingrich just said on Hannity tonight that Republicans are not present in the conversation about violence against black people and thus don't really have any legitimacy in the discussion.

Good Lord. I feel like I'm in the twilight zone.

New Survey coming this weekend!
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#129670: Jul 11th 2016 at 10:56:32 PM

[up][up]The KKK haven't been "normal" for a very long time. They've been a Villain by Default since as long as I can remember and probably long before that.

Calling the right bigots causes a "cry wolf effect". Conservatives generally believe that the left likes to call people bigots in order to avoid addressing their arguments ("you only dislike Obama's policies because he's black"). However, what a lot of Conservatives forget is that, just because some on the left falsely accuse people of being bigots doesn't mean that bigots don't exist. When Trump is declared a racist, they look at this with more skepticism than they should since "that's what they said about Bush and Romney" (who, at the very least, are not the same kind of racist that Trump is).

Same thing happens with the left-the Democrats have been called socialists so much that it's actually normalized socialism, which is how we get people like Sanders. Had the Republican party been less trigger happy with cries of "socialist" Sanders would not be as successful as was.

edited 11th Jul '16 10:56:43 PM by Protagonist506

Leviticus 19:34
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#129671: Jul 11th 2016 at 10:56:37 PM

[up][up][up]What are they supposed to do when they go underground and stop committing obvious crimes? As despicable as they are, they have the same right to assemble and speak as everyone else.

And the Klan's original downfall was not government action...it was PR.

edited 11th Jul '16 10:56:53 PM by Elle

tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#129672: Jul 11th 2016 at 10:57:54 PM

Turns out Michah Johnson, the Dallas shooter, was on Quanell X's security team for a few months, but was let go after he expressed views of killing other blacks who didn't share his more fringeish world view.

edited 11th Jul '16 10:58:09 PM by tclittle

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#129673: Jul 11th 2016 at 11:00:39 PM

Another point is that ideas presented with anger attract opposing angry ideas. If you declare that you hate someone and everything they believe, they have no reason to listen to you or do anything but hate you back. As CGP Grey put it, to propose that an idea presented in anger doesn't attract an opposing angry ideal is the same as suggesting that planting more flowers doesn't attract more bees-they live in symbiosis.

Leviticus 19:34
Matues Since: Sep, 2011
#129674: Jul 11th 2016 at 11:48:55 PM

@Protagonist

As a gay man, I find that the GOP continues to support positions and laws that are directly harmful to me.

What am I supposed to do, say I don't mind them when half of their leadership wants me to be illegal again?

Of course I'm angry at the party that hasn't left the 1950s.

Bat178 Since: May, 2011
#129675: Jul 12th 2016 at 12:16:37 AM

That "greatest in the world" thing over-patriotic Americans/Republicans keep saying about their country hasn't been true since the 90's. Many other 1st World countries do some things better than you nowadays. The only things you really have over most other 1st World countries are the strongest military and economy.

[down] Fixed.

edited 12th Jul '16 1:56:39 AM by Bat178


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