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CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#129076: Jul 6th 2016 at 5:17:52 PM

@LSBK: The salient point is that Sanders' performance in the primaries was to be expected...For an establishment democrat with a solid base of support in the party going against the party's goldenboy/girl, not for someone who was an independent until this particular cycle.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#129077: Jul 6th 2016 at 5:19:57 PM

[up]And? Everyone has admitted he did unprecedentedly well for his position. That does not change that he still lost decisively. The two are not contradictory.

edited 6th Jul '16 5:20:19 PM by LSBK

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#129078: Jul 6th 2016 at 5:23:59 PM

[up] Yes, but that's not the point we're making, it was a decisive victory that should have been a crushing, overwhelming victory. Is it any wonder about half of Sanders' platform has gotten into the party's overall platform?

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#129079: Jul 6th 2016 at 5:24:52 PM

I'm not even sure what the point is anymore, since you guys seem to be disagreeing about agreeing with each other.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#129080: Jul 6th 2016 at 5:25:55 PM

[up]He didn't like the way I phrased the point for some reason. That's all really.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#129081: Jul 6th 2016 at 5:27:03 PM

I've noticed that a lot of arguments within the left tend to originate from semantics.

GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#129082: Jul 6th 2016 at 5:33:51 PM

Just because I didn't mention that Obama's victory against Clinton was narrow in 2008 doesn't mean it wasn't. Indeed, it was more narrow between Obama and Clinton than it was between Clinton and Sanders. That being said, both Obama and Clinton in 2008 were actual Democrats compared to Sanders who was an Independent who became a Democrat just to run in the 2016 Democratic Primaries. Despite losing to Obama, Clinton was a long-established member of the Democratic Party, former Senator of New York, and former First Lady in 2008.

Face it, Bernie Sanders did well in the 2016 Democratic Primaries period, and amazingly well for someone who was Independent until the 2016 Democratic Primaries.

edited 6th Jul '16 5:36:09 PM by GameGuruGG

Wizard Needs Food Badly
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#129083: Jul 6th 2016 at 5:40:05 PM

Except no one was denying that so I don't actually understand why some of you are getting defensive.

edited 6th Jul '16 5:42:16 PM by LSBK

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#129084: Jul 6th 2016 at 5:41:47 PM

Historically speaking, Sanders got roasted. If this was within five points you'd maybe have an argument but this is the Primary. Even with all the aura of negativity around her and all right wing and left wing attacking her, he still couldn't come out on top.

Obama was a once in a generation politician yet he at the height of his cult of personality (let's keep it real) could only manage to barely beat her by a few percentage points.

Sanders ain't even in the same league, and lost by every possible metric.

New Survey coming this weekend!
ILoveDogs Since: May, 2010
#129085: Jul 6th 2016 at 5:43:08 PM

Speaking of Sanders, he and Clinton are planning a joint appearance together, and talking about endorsement.

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#129086: Jul 6th 2016 at 5:46:57 PM

He should've done this after NY. His leverage would've been massive.

New Survey coming this weekend!
ILoveDogs Since: May, 2010
#129087: Jul 6th 2016 at 5:48:35 PM

Better late than never, right? If he helps to GOTV in college campuses I'd forgive him.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#129088: Jul 6th 2016 at 6:01:38 PM

Sanders' loss is by a sizeable margin. Unless I misremember my history, it is a historically large margin.

I'd also like to note that it's very annoying to me that the narrative is so often spun as "outsider does very well against establishment candidate" and not "first woman to win major party nomination bests old white man". The historic nature of Clinton's victory gets ignored, and we are expected instead to pay tribute to her male adversary for "doing so well".

Screw that. I'm not paying tribute to him. He ran. He lost. He lost by a fair amount, in fact. To act like the party or progressives in general owe him so much is to, in many ways, spit in the face of the first female nominee.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#129089: Jul 6th 2016 at 6:08:58 PM

[up] Sure, if you reduce everything to one dimensional identity politics, and insist that if you aren't on top of the progressive stack, you don't matter.

[down] That to.

edited 6th Jul '16 6:37:08 PM by CaptainCapsase

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#129090: Jul 6th 2016 at 6:09:38 PM

On the other hand as the establishment candidate that puts her in a high position of privilege relative to Sanders, reducing the potency of the underdog narrative here.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#129091: Jul 6th 2016 at 6:16:16 PM

She was never the underdog. That was always Sanders thing, as this entire conversation illustrates with people getting upset about how we're somehow underselling him despite admitting he did really well, even though he lost decisively.

Again, both of these are facts, that you dislike the second part doesn't make it any less true, anymore than some people disliking Sanders changes the fact that he did do really well, especially considering his position.

edited 6th Jul '16 6:17:26 PM by LSBK

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#129092: Jul 6th 2016 at 6:24:49 PM

The problem is Sanders and Clinton are both more then single identify lines. Clinton is a women, but she's also a monied, establishment, beltway politican and white. Sanders is a man, but he's also anti-establishment, descendant of immigrants and a Jew.

When it comes to gender Sanders is more privileged them Clinton, but when it comes to class, wealth, connections and race he's worse of then her, so you can't reduce it to a binary "one is a minority one isn't".

edited 6th Jul '16 6:25:44 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#129093: Jul 6th 2016 at 6:27:49 PM

I'd just prefer to say that Sanders was the underdog, but he didn't make it in the end.

And Clinton pretty much rode this nomination to victory, quite easily.

There's other various details, but that's a pretty accurate summarization.

Shadow?
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#129094: Jul 6th 2016 at 6:46:26 PM

55-45 is a pretty ideal margin for someone running as an outsider in terms of getting his platform out. It's a large enough win for the establishment that the whole thing shouldn't derail into "Sanders really won"-ishness that might damage the party in November or afterwards (see the question of "who won?" in 2000), but it's a large enough vote for the outsider to tell Clinton "hey! There are a lot of dissatisfied people in your party who want some leftist policies. Please pay attention to us or we'll be having this talk again in 2020."

C.v. the last Scexit referendum, which I think was about at this margin.

PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#129096: Jul 6th 2016 at 7:48:00 PM

As to the college thing:

If I remember from reading various articles, one of the things causing the ballooning of costs is a combination of sports programs (and coaches) costing quite a ton of money alongside keeping scientific and computer equipment up to date.

Secondly, not college for everyone technically is right, apparently a huge amount of the unfulfilled jobs in the US economy are jobs taught at Trade Schools and the like. And are about just as well paying as some college backed jobs.

As to Hillary's proposal, do note:

  • States (i.e. Republican states) are allowed to opt out, a la Obamacare.
  • It has a 10 hour a week work requirement (which could have damaging consequence to jobs at the college's in-campus stores and jobs held in the surrounding area.) in the interest of garnering conservative votes.
  • They want to have administrative costs gutted to help pay for this/cover this, by automating and firing people as much as possible

edited 6th Jul '16 9:41:07 PM by PotatoesRock

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#129097: Jul 6th 2016 at 8:38:34 PM

[up]Eww. Hillary, no. If you don't have the votes, begging Republicans for a compromise isn't the way to get them. You won't get a working program that way.

edited 6th Jul '16 8:38:50 PM by Ramidel

PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#129098: Jul 6th 2016 at 9:42:39 PM

[up] "The year is 1996, right? We cut plenty of deals with Republicans"

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010

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