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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#128801: Jul 5th 2016 at 8:29:03 AM

Hand up if anyone was surprised by Comey recommending that no prosecution happen. <sits on hands>

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#128802: Jul 5th 2016 at 8:30:56 AM

@Fighteer: Very few things are actually run by deliberate conspiracies. Mostly everything attributed to conspiracy happens because of unintentional convergences of powerful interests and/or emergent behaviors of social networks.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#128803: Jul 5th 2016 at 8:32:23 AM

No offense, but that sounds like a ridiculous catch-all.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#128804: Jul 5th 2016 at 8:33:46 AM

Whenever I read about conspiracy theories, I'm reminded of South Park's 9/11 episode, where the conspiracy theory was, in fact, the idea conspiracy theories which served to make the government look in control

edited 5th Jul '16 8:34:16 AM by sgamer82

tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Never Trust
#128805: Jul 5th 2016 at 8:36:00 AM

Despite the lack of indictment, should the Republicans retain control of the Senate expect them to hold committee investigations about it. These will run alongside their next Benghazi hearings.

Trump delenda est
TheWanted Since: Oct, 2013
#128806: Jul 5th 2016 at 8:36:54 AM

[up][up]wasn't that an actual ploy used by the Soviet Union about JKF's assassination?

as an aside, why isn't the FBI reccomending Clinton be prosecuted? I just saw the statetement, and the director was saying several email chains contained classified information at the time they were sent. How is that not a crime?

edited 5th Jul '16 8:40:41 AM by TheWanted

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#128807: Jul 5th 2016 at 8:43:16 AM

[up] Because it hasn't been historically prosecuted without evidence of intent or extremely large volumes of data.

@Lightsnake: I'm talking more about things that aren't just flat out made up; ie governments covering up evidence of aliens existing.

edited 5th Jul '16 8:53:42 AM by CaptainCapsase

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#128808: Jul 5th 2016 at 8:44:27 AM

For what it's worth, some conspiracy theorists do, in fact, call other conspiracy theorists plants from the conspirators themselves. For example, David Icke's conspiracy theory is so out-of-left field that other conspiracy theorists have argued he was sent by the Illuminati/whatever to make other conspiracy theorists look crazy by association with him.

Leviticus 19:34
TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#128809: Jul 5th 2016 at 8:56:15 AM

Please, the CIA (or FBI? Can't remember) encouraged UFO theories as it would help keep the heat of actual classified programs.

edited 5th Jul '16 8:57:15 AM by TerminusEst

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#128810: Jul 5th 2016 at 8:57:39 AM

I suppose it's always possible, in some world where things are not all run by shadowy conspiracies, that there simply isn't enough evidence of wrongdoing to justify a criminal indictment...

Which is not to say that I might be totally above politics in such a position — were I the FBI director and tasked with making a judgment call that might hand the country to Donald Trump, I would find it hard to remain unbiased.

The sad fact is that most people are happy to use the criminal justice system as a political or social tool, to the point of getting pissed off when it doesn't get used that way. This is one of the few things I think both the left and the right are equally guilty of. The left started a shitstorm when George Zimmerman initially wasn't changed with anything due to the local prosecutor believing there wasn't sufficient evidence for a conviction.... and then threw another when he was tried and found not guilty due to lack of sufficient evidence. Similarly, I don't expect the right to accept this decision, nor would I expect them to shut up about it even if she was tried and found not guilty. Hell, we're seeing that right now from the left with the trials regarding the death of Freddie Gray.

People have trouble accepting that the criminal justice system is not the venue for addressing social causes. Just because the deaths of Treyvon Martin and Freddie Gray didn't result in convictions doesn't mean that racism isn't a thing (or that racism is such a thing that you can murder brown people and get away with it). It just means that it wasn't proven beyond a reasonable doubt that those people in those situations were guilty of a criminal offense. And on the flip side, the fact that they're not recommending prosecution of Hilary Clinton (and that she'd probably be found not guilty if she was prosecuted) doesn't mean she didn't screw up and do something she shouldn't have, it just means that getting a conviction (which is deliberately difficult in our criminal justice system, because we as a society have decided that it's better to set guilty men free than to imprison innocent men) is a lost cause.

Please, the CIA (or FBI? Can't remember) encouraged UFO theories as it would help keep the heat of actual classified programs.
The government never officially endorsed UFO theories that I'm aware of, but they did make a show of investigating them when they knew damn well that Area 51 was a government test facility for classified Cold War aircraft. Hell, when a bunch of Area 51 stuff was declassified a while ago, I was amused at everyone going "oh, it was Cold War spy plane stuff" and the aviation enthusiast community going "wait, people didn't know that already? We've known that forever."

edited 5th Jul '16 9:01:35 AM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#128811: Jul 5th 2016 at 9:23:48 AM

as an aside, why isn't the FBI reccomending Clinton be prosecuted? I just saw the statetement, and the director was saying several email chains contained classified information at the time they were sent. How is that not a crime?

It's never been prosecuted before. They'd have to arrest several prior secretaries of state.

Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#128812: Jul 5th 2016 at 9:24:23 AM

Days like today make it easy for me to see why a sizable portion of the U.S. population is willing to back anyone who looks like he's not part of the system, even if it's Trump.

Sec. Clinton is clearly guilty of mishandling classified materials and trying to circumvent the Freedom of Information Act, but no one in the administration seems to either care or be willing to do anything about it. "No reasonable prosecutor would bring such a case" indeed.

And no one is surprised at this either.

It seems like it's been a long long time since "what's best for the country" won out over "what it takes to beat the other side."

Is anyone authentically enthusiastic about Sec. Clinton as a candidate on her own merits, and not merely as the best method at hand to stop Trump?

smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#128813: Jul 5th 2016 at 9:27:29 AM

I know I am. She's got good policies, for the most part. If we can somehow get a liberal congress, this could be a good couple of years.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#128814: Jul 5th 2016 at 9:27:33 AM

Sec. Clinton is clearly guilty of mishandling classified materials and trying to circumvent the Freedom of Information Act, but no one in the administration seems to either care or be willing to do anything about it. "No reasonable prosecutor would bring such a case" indeed.

You can't lock her up when the last several secretaries of state have done the exact same thing.

It seems like it's been a long long time since "what's best for the country" won out over "what it takes to beat the other side."

And what pray tell is best for the country? A Trump presidency?

Is anyone authentically enthusiastic about Sec. Clinton as a candidate on her own merits, and not merely as the best method at hand to stop Trump?

Yes.

FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#128815: Jul 5th 2016 at 9:34:43 AM

I'm voting for her due to foreign policies. And yes, to stop Trump.

On the subject of emails, it seems State itself needs to get its shit together, since the FBI has said the agency as a whole seems lackdaisal with the info. Honestly, I think that more than anything is the reason no prosecutor will go after it...the entire department would have to be sacked. If there is a political angle to it, gimme evidence of exactly what angle it is. Methinks, if there is one, its that Clinton promised the FBI to let them kick State into gear security-wise if she becomes president.

On the subject of the FBI Director: I told you so.

edited 5th Jul '16 9:34:58 AM by FFShinra

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#128816: Jul 5th 2016 at 9:38:12 AM

Let's also be clear about something: they said she might've been careless, but chose words carefully to avoid stating she was guilty of something that could be charged for a crime.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#128817: Jul 5th 2016 at 9:44:44 AM

@Bense: She is not guilty of anything without (a) a criminal indictment, (b) a conviction by trial. You know, that whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing. Ever heard of rule of law, due process?

edited 5th Jul '16 9:47:11 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#128818: Jul 5th 2016 at 9:45:32 AM

[up][up][up] You did, but I have a suspicion it would've gone the other way if the GOP had a competitive candidate. Playing kingmaker like this means the end of your career if your man doesn't win, and Trump wouldn't be a remotely safe bet.

edited 5th Jul '16 9:48:20 AM by CaptainCapsase

Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#128819: Jul 5th 2016 at 9:50:33 AM

You can't lock her up when the last several secretaries of state have done the exact same thing.
If they all did it, then why can't we investigate and prosecute the last several Secretaries of State for the same crimes?
And what pray tell is best for the country? A Trump presidency?
God forbid. Unfortunately both parties seem afflicted with "what it takes to beat the other guy."
@Bense: She is not guilty of anything without (a) a criminal indictment, (b) a conviction by trial. You know, that whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing. Ever heard of rule of law, due process?
Of course, but I wasn't speaking in the legal sense.

O. J. Simpson was not legally guilty of the murder of his wife, but he did murder her.

edited 5th Jul '16 9:54:06 AM by Bense

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#128820: Jul 5th 2016 at 9:53:18 AM

If they all did it, then why can't we investigate and prosecute the last several Secretaries of State for the same crimes?

Because this is a political witch hunt. It is a manufactured scandal for the specific purpose of taking down Hillary Clinton. If Congress and/or the FBI actually cared about what SecState does with their email, they'd have investigated those others.

I wasn't speaking in the legal sense.
Exactly. Because this isn't a criminal matter; it's a political matter. There's no fire beneath the smoke.

edited 5th Jul '16 9:54:09 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#128821: Jul 5th 2016 at 9:55:53 AM

Actually, could someone explain what exactly was so "awful" about her using a different email than the server they had set up?

Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#128822: Jul 5th 2016 at 9:56:55 AM

Because this is a political witch hunt. It is a manufactured scandal for the specific purpose of taking down Hillary Clinton. If Congress and/or the FBI actually cared about what Sec State does with their email, they'd have investigated those others.
Well I for one believe they should care. There are laws against mis-handling classified materials and laws that require officers of the government to preserve their correspondence for the public record.

If when a criminal act is investigated changes with the identity of the suspect then we have a serious problem.

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#128823: Jul 5th 2016 at 9:58:16 AM

[up][up]It's a security thing. The State Department e-mail system is supposedly secure, however it's apparently absurdly clunky and difficult to use. So Hillary Clinton, as well as several of her predecessors, used private e-mail systems so that they could do their job properly.

The complaints were focused on the idea that Clinton could have sent classified e-mails through the private system, but the classification system itself is all kinds of messed up. For example, tons of stuff is classified retroactively, after it becomes irrelevant, but all the rules for classified data apply even if it wasn't classified originally.

It's kind of a weird situation.

edited 5th Jul '16 10:00:34 AM by Zendervai

Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#128824: Jul 5th 2016 at 9:59:58 AM

And since Hillary did it that makes it the most evilest thing in the history of ever.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#128825: Jul 5th 2016 at 10:01:43 AM

Okay. I wasn't really sure if I was missing something and there could possibly be some minor merit to the investigation, but nope. It really is just Hillary being safer/more efficient and getting demonized for it because technically it's against the rules.


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