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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#128751: Jul 4th 2016 at 6:40:13 AM

Technically the TPP has passed. The issue is enforcement via ratification.

Also, of note from Fighteer's observation of one of Krugman's recent posts, it appears Trade Deals don't destroy the volume of jobs available. But there is a hostile side effect: Unionized/Manufacturing jobs get gutted with every trade deal, and they get replaced with a Non-Unionized Service Sector job with poor to low benefits and reduced wage quality, from the looks of it.

So while Trade Deals might not take your ability to work away, you're likely to end up in a much more unsafe, miserable and poorer paying job every time one gets ratified and enforced.

In other words, one of the key problems here is regulatory and lobbyist capture of government officials, and the general refusal of the government to enforce regulations and backing of Unions since Nixon-Reagan.

edited 4th Jul '16 6:40:55 AM by PotatoesRock

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#128752: Jul 4th 2016 at 9:50:10 AM

Is there some rule that says service sector employees can't unionize?

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#128753: Jul 4th 2016 at 9:51:01 AM

In some states, yes. In some businesses even speaking about unionizing is ground for immediate termination.

Oh really when?
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#128754: Jul 4th 2016 at 9:54:43 AM

The staffing/contractor industry has become a behemoth in and of itself as well, so there is plenty to counter union influence even in states that don't have such laws.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#128755: Jul 4th 2016 at 10:21:22 AM

The whole thing about unionizing is a separate issue from trade deals, though, and I think would exist even without that. Right to work and all that is a whole bunch of bullshit, and I'd respect Sanders a lot more of that was the kind of populist thing he was fighting for; our ability and right to unionize in order to leverage better wages against corporations. That in itself would be as valuable if not more as getting manufacturing back into the US.

I'd like to point out that Tactical Fox is the one calling Sanders a loser and all that; seems to have a bizarre hate on for the guy while most of are just kind of bleh on him.

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#128758: Jul 4th 2016 at 11:01:11 AM

Manufacturing jobs used to be shit too before unionization and minimum wages and whatnot. So it's not a unique property of service jobs that they suck compared to manufacturing jobs, but rather that service jobs haven't benefited from the same labor actions. In a sense, trade globalization has been a way for the business sector to trade down from unionized, highly regulated jobs to a much looser labor market.

The remedy, of course, is pretty straightforward: unionize and protect service sector jobs.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#128759: Jul 4th 2016 at 11:16:49 AM

[up] If only it were that straightforward. The damage of decades of demonizing unions and systematically dismantling them will be very difficult to undo.

FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#128760: Jul 4th 2016 at 11:23:51 AM

The unions aren't completely innocent lambs either though. Enough own goals were made to play into anti-union hands.

desdendelle Hooded Crow from Land of Milk and Honey (Sergeant) Relationship Status: Hiding
Hooded Crow
#128761: Jul 4th 2016 at 11:27:37 AM

[up] That definitely happens. Here certainly (*cough* IEC workers' union *cough*) and no doubt in the States as well.

On empty crossroads, seek the eclipse -- for when Sol and Lua align, the lost shall find their way home.
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#128762: Jul 4th 2016 at 11:30:05 AM

[up][up] Same in Britain. The Unions even played a major part in bringing down a Governmentnote .

edited 4th Jul '16 11:33:23 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#128763: Jul 4th 2016 at 11:50:15 AM

Unions do exist for service sector jobs in the US: [1]. But how organized they really are or how much influence they have is questionable.

Most times, people will only join a union if it's a closed shop — meaning, if you want to work here, you have to join. Otherwise, they see little point in paying dues to a union that doesn't seem to do anything for them in return. Of course, the more union members there are in the workforce, the more clout the union has. It's sort of a Catch-22 situation.

edited 4th Jul '16 11:56:06 AM by pwiegle

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#128764: Jul 4th 2016 at 12:11:56 PM

Well, full regulation is the other option, but we know what's going to happen to that in the current Congress.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#128765: Jul 4th 2016 at 12:37:22 PM

[up] I remember the days when I took the 111th congress for granted and not doing enough.

Man, if I only knew...

New Survey coming this weekend!
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#128766: Jul 4th 2016 at 12:45:34 PM

[up][up]What's going to happen to that in the current Congress? And just what is full regulation, if I may ask?

edited 4th Jul '16 12:45:50 PM by kkhohoho

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#128767: Jul 4th 2016 at 12:53:39 PM

[up] By "full", I mean the basics like a living minimum wage, mandatory health insurance, vacation/sick leave, family leave, etc. And such legislation would never even come up for a vote in the Republican-controlled House and Senate.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#128768: Jul 4th 2016 at 3:49:11 PM

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/07/how-american-politics-went-insane/485570/

Fantastic article, but here's my favorite.

Specifically, they believe that obvious, commonsense solutions to the country’s problems are out there for the plucking. The reason these obvious solutions are not enacted is that politicians are corrupt, or self-interested, or addicted to unnecessary partisan feuding. Not surprisingly, politiphobes think the obvious, commonsense solutions are the sorts of solutions that they themselves prefer. But the more important point is that they do not acknowledge that meaningful policy disagreement even exists. From that premise, they conclude that all the arguing and partisanship and horse-trading that go on in American politics are entirely unnecessary. Politicians could easily solve all our problems if they would only set aside their craven personal agendas.

It's so spot on it's painful.

New Survey coming this weekend!
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#128769: Jul 4th 2016 at 4:38:56 PM

[up] What we're witnesses isn't at all abnormal, nor unexpected. As much progress has been made in regards to social justice over the past thirty years, we have been in a slow and steady backslide in terms of economic justice for the past thirty years as organized labor, welfare systems, and regulatory agencies have been systematically discredited and dismantled. The Great Recession has resulted in a stagnation of this trend.

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#128771: Jul 4th 2016 at 5:47:04 PM

[up]

"The only way to be free is to do everything I say!" — Ty-R-ANT, from the Paranoia RPG
tongue

edited 4th Jul '16 5:49:08 PM by pwiegle

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CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#128772: Jul 4th 2016 at 6:47:06 PM

There's also many cases where what people are suggesting isn't just "common sense", and has extensive support from relevant experts; ie the notion that austerity is usually a bad idea in an economic crisis.

edited 4th Jul '16 6:47:16 PM by CaptainCapsase

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#128773: Jul 4th 2016 at 7:19:04 PM

If you'll pardon the approaching Cliché Storm...

Whenever the economy takes a nosedive, the company bean-counters start slashing the budget while urging the workforce to "do more with less." It seldom works, for the simple reason that slash-and-burn economics won't keep you afloat in an increasingly competitive market. You have to spend money to make money; don't hoard your dwindling profits, re-invest them.

edited 4th Jul '16 8:07:28 PM by pwiegle

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