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flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#128726: Jul 3rd 2016 at 10:22:19 PM

[up][up][up]A civil politic thread is an oxymoron.

edited 3rd Jul '16 10:22:38 PM by flameboy21th

Non Indicative Username
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#128727: Jul 3rd 2016 at 10:30:37 PM

[up][up] And those posts should not be happening either.

Completely ignoring people's points to flame them/turn the topic into being about them is rather unacceptable here. And yes, civility is enforced. There's a reason for that. Not just cause we're at TVT, where civility is a major rule here, but because there's never an excuse to be rude. Ever.

Shadow?
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#128728: Jul 3rd 2016 at 10:42:20 PM

We can disagree with people without attacking them personally.

smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#128729: Jul 3rd 2016 at 10:45:09 PM

Back to the point: this bill is not worth the damage of a Trump presidency. Hell, we have no guarantee that Hillary would sign it or that Trump wouldn't. Voting for Trump because of this bill alone would be the most ridiculous thing you could do in November.

TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#128730: Jul 3rd 2016 at 10:52:24 PM

A Trump presidency will damage the entire planet. The ever present problem of a superpower.

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#128731: Jul 3rd 2016 at 10:57:07 PM

Any climate change initiative? Gone. Supreme Court? Gone. Criminal Justice reform? LOOOOL.

All of that and many more.

New Survey coming this weekend!
Perian Since: Jun, 2016
#128732: Jul 4th 2016 at 12:39:44 AM

Basically, to sum up the link, Sanders is saying that the Democratic party needs to agree to oppose the TPP or else he'll cause problems. God damn it, Sanders...
And you get this somehow from:
"There were a number of vitally important proposals brought forth by the delegates from our campaign that were not adopted. My hope is that a grassroots movement of working people, environmentalists, and human-rights advocates will work with us to demand that the Democratic Party include these initiatives in the platform to be adopted by the full committee in Orlando," Sanders wrote for the newspaper, based in the city hosting this month's Democratic
That's really stretching it. Bernie Sanders is simply doing what he said from the beginning that he would do: fight for progressive change. It's as simple as that. Calling him a 'loser' for that is reducing politics to a talent show, which, I guess, American elections really have become.

Why does Sanders think he is entitled to shove protectionist horseshit into the platform? He already got plenty of good ideas in there, he should be thankful he got that far.
You know that many people, including Noble prize winning economists such as Paul Krugman and Joseph Stiglitz, oppose the bill? Do these people also want 'protectionist horseshit'? Also, Clinton herself said several times on the campaign trail that she opposed it.

Bat178 Since: May, 2011
#128733: Jul 4th 2016 at 12:46:50 AM

[up][up][up] It's why I believe America shouldn't be a Superpower anymore and Superpowers shouldn't exist. No gods, no masters.

edited 4th Jul '16 12:47:20 AM by Bat178

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#128734: Jul 4th 2016 at 12:47:19 AM

[up][up]He's a loser because he lost. Though there are obviously people hear who have distaste for the the man, the person who made that comment was clearly speaking from that perspective.

And it's not that other people don't oppose it, it's that he's coming off as unreasonable (to some) by expecting all of his demands to be met or he'll start trouble.

edited 4th Jul '16 12:47:34 AM by LSBK

Perian Since: Jun, 2016
#128735: Jul 4th 2016 at 12:53:42 AM

[up] He only 'lost' if you reduce politics to the horse race, which was exactly my point. And since when is appealing to "a grassroots movement of working people, environmentalists, and human-rights advocates" the same as threatening to cause trouble?

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#128736: Jul 4th 2016 at 12:56:30 AM

[up]No, he lost by literally any metric you use. That has been gone over multiple times. He got fewer votes, he won fewer primaries, he carried fewer states. He lost, get over.

edited 4th Jul '16 12:57:07 AM by LSBK

smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#128737: Jul 4th 2016 at 12:57:07 AM

The fact that some of those people are talking about how they'll cause chaos if he doesn't get handed the nomination. The fact that he's refusing to actually endorse Hillary. The fact that he keeps pulling shit like this and demanding the party uses his platform even though Hillary won.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#128738: Jul 4th 2016 at 1:02:50 AM

Yawn. A presidential nomination primary. Not the same thing as a policy primary. Especially since Hillary itself did flip against TPP/TTIP. Being disingenuous about this is not going to convince anybody.

Now, if memory serves, the reason why Sanders' request about TTP/TTIP was rejected was because the Democrats want not to step on Obama's toes. Which to me only indicates Obama needs to be inculcated a bit more that his treaties are economically questionable. I am also not sold on reading the op-ed as presented in POLITICO as "starting trouble".

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Perian Since: Jun, 2016
#128739: Jul 4th 2016 at 1:16:24 AM

[up][up][up] I think we have some communication failure going on? I meant: there is more to politics than only elections. The "He lost, get over" is exactly this narrow perspective that I'm talking about.

[up][up] The quote simply means that he wants to achieve change through the people, that's all. Saying that he is asking these same people to cause chaos if he doesn't get nominated is really the worst possible interpretation that you can give to it. Or do you really think he's asking human rights advocates, of all people, to cause trouble?

edited 4th Jul '16 1:18:13 AM by Perian

3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#128741: Jul 4th 2016 at 2:06:19 AM

Sanders may not have gotten the majority of votes in the primary. He still got a sizeable minority. Saying he should just shut up and be gone because he didn't 'win' is kinda going into a tyranny of the majority?

I get the wish to have the Democratic Party unified going forward against the great toupee, but honestly...the very aggressive tone here regarding him, reductive language to "loser" and general demonization is just not exactly the high art of politic discourse one wishes for.

edited 4th Jul '16 2:07:27 AM by 3of4

"You can reply to this Message!"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#128742: Jul 4th 2016 at 2:13:25 AM

[up]Literally no one is saying that. But honestly, it's a bit tiring having anything with Sanders being reduced to either accusations of praising him endlessly or attacking him over everything.

3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#128743: Jul 4th 2016 at 2:25:44 AM

[up]

At this point, the Dems just need to tell him to fuck off, explicitly. He LOST. The loser doesn't get to dictate the winner's platform.

And I basically agree with you. There is not much middle ground left here in regards to Sanders, which gets tiring.

edited 4th Jul '16 2:27:46 AM by 3of4

"You can reply to this Message!"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#128744: Jul 4th 2016 at 2:32:44 AM

It's amazing how quickly some folks have become pro the TPP (which as Fighteer has explained before is not free trade) once Sander's is opposing it.

I'd like to know what kind of trouble he's threatening, if he's just gonna be a pain at the convention within the rules that he's entitled to do that. Wake me up when he makes dangerous threats like a third party run.

edited 4th Jul '16 3:00:26 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#128745: Jul 4th 2016 at 2:55:09 AM

[up][up][up] I think we have some communication failure going on? I meant: there is more to politics than only elections. The "He lost, get over" is exactly this narrow perspective that I'm talking about.

I think your point might be better stated as "getting elected is only a means to an end: the ultimate goal is to effect policy, and that can be done without being President (although that would have helped)."

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#128746: Jul 4th 2016 at 4:14:26 AM

If Sanders limits his opposition to just TPP and examines other trade deals by their own merits, that's one thing. But I have my doubts about that.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#128747: Jul 4th 2016 at 4:23:27 AM

Most trade deals tend to have debatable benefits and disadvantages. I don't know if TTP/TTIP are special among trade deals, except for the fact that they come in a time where people realize that a) trade deals often contain corporate welfare provisions (ISDS, copyright rules etc.) of questionable societal benefit and b) trade deals tend to have redistributive effects that typically aren't fixed.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#128748: Jul 4th 2016 at 5:03:04 AM

That's basically it. Attacking people who oppose specific "trade" deals on account of them being against free trade is attacking a Straw Man.

Reducing politics to promotion ladders and electoral races seems silly as well. Calling Sanders a "political zombie" because he's not the one person nominated to be presidential candidate strikes me as very misleading.

I'm hoping that the TPP, TTIP, and other SOPA, PIPA, ACTA, Special 301, and so on and so forth are widely shown for what they are and stopped before inception.

edited 4th Jul '16 5:13:18 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#128749: Jul 4th 2016 at 5:56:40 AM

The big thing is Bernie is pretty much the only one seriously fighting against the TPP right now, the damn thing is likely to pass.

edited 4th Jul '16 5:58:00 AM by Memers

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#128750: Jul 4th 2016 at 6:00:49 AM

Donald Trump too, but he isn't trustworthy and there is a mile of reasons not to vote for him anyway.

Hillary as well, but not very proactively.

edited 4th Jul '16 6:01:22 AM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

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