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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#128601: Jul 2nd 2016 at 8:09:23 PM

[up] I didn't say you lied I said you "threw shit", we can start with you shitting on her doing something pro-LGBT, move to you pulling up the transcript non-issue and go on from there?

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#128602: Jul 2nd 2016 at 8:12:20 PM

She's made quite a few comments lately about limiting who has access to guns (such as people with violent pasts or having been on terror watchlists not being allowed to buy guns, among other things). I can look for more specifics, but that's what I remember off the top of my head.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#128603: Jul 2nd 2016 at 8:14:28 PM

I figured she'd evolved, I'm just iffy on her gun position, a lot of good political capital was wasted with the AWB, mandatory background checks should have been done years ago.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
940131 Since: Feb, 2014
#128604: Jul 2nd 2016 at 8:26:18 PM

1) I said she was late in supporting the community, because she was. Inever said it wasn't a good thing that she came around.

2) I brought up the transcripts, because if we're talking about money in politics it would be nice to see them. What's the big deal? If there's nothing damaging in them, why not let everyone know.

edited 2nd Jul '16 8:35:33 PM by 940131

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#128605: Jul 2nd 2016 at 8:38:02 PM

You strait up said that she was being pro-LGBT because she was opportunist, not that she was just late, but that she was simply trying to take advantage of the LGBT community for political reasons.

As for the transcripts? Who not release them? Because they're not here to release. Pretty simply answer. Why would they possibly be damaging if there is nothing bad in them? Because this is politics and mountains can be mad out of hell molehills.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#128606: Jul 2nd 2016 at 8:48:08 PM

I've just read this whole conversation. My god it's a broken record. Still let's clear a few things up:

My points on Clinton vs Sanders were accurate.

No they weren't. Let's go through your talking points, shall we?

1) "Clinton called African-American boys superpredators and supported the Crime Bill." She referenced a then-popular pop psychology theory about how gangs were turning children into superpredators. That's the actual context of that quote, which you'd know if you ever watched the damn speech or looked the term up. As First Lady she of course had no power to actually enact the Bill she just supported her husband's legislation.

You know what Saint Bernie did? He wrote off all gang kids as "sociopaths" then voted for the Crime Bill. He helped get it passed. Gonna call him on being worse than her and doing more to get the CB into law than she ever did?

2) "Clinton is in hock to Wall Street." She made a couple speeches when she was a free agent. Big damn deal. Most of the money got donated to the Clinton Foundation. Big damn deal.

Saint Bernie got elected by the NRA. He has opposed better gun legislation. He's definitely in hock to them.

3) "Clinton was okay with Egypt's election." This one baffles me. What did you want her to do, oh opposers of international wars—overthrow the democratically elected government of Egypt? People in Egypt voted in a relatively free relatively fair election and because they elected a candidate you don't like, it's her fault? I'm Canadian. You guys elected Bush twice in a row while we looked on in horror. Should we have had CSIS assassinate him to fix that problem?

4) "She came out late to support gay rights." Everyone forgets that when "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" got passed by her husband it was thought of as a good thing for gay rights. It didn't work out that way, but that was the thinking at the time. As Secretary of State she opened up the department and hired more gay and lesbian employees than had ever worked there before. She also made it possible for trans people to have the gender on their passport changed with nothing more than a doctor's note—previously you needed to have already completed the surgery and have a raft of psychiatric papers. Clinton's record on gay rights is better than that of any candidate prior.

Saint Bernie's record on gay rights isn't bad at all but the idea he's been in favour of marriage equality since 1983? That's a lie. As recently as 2006 he was in favour of civil unions and nothing farther. He's progressive on the issue, sure, but he's not a goddamn prophet. The whole "he supported gay marriage in the 80s" thing is a flatout lie put up on the Internet by some of his more crazed supporters without a shred of actual evidence. Go back through his speeches sometime. Find me a single time in the 80s, or even 90s, when he was actually pro-gay marriage. You'll have to do some research, but surely that's preferable to blindly defending a candidate based on faulty information, right?

PS-The reason you're being accused of slandering Clinton, by the way, is not only because you are repeating nonsense from the crazier Bernie fanboys, but because you've said several times that there's no difference between her and Trump and that you wouldn't vote. That's objectively untrue, yet every time it's been pointed out you've tried to pivot back to Clinton vs Sanders (which is over and dead and not relevant in the least to the subject of if she's better than Trump). Don't raise arguments you can't defend.

edited 2nd Jul '16 8:49:07 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#128607: Jul 2nd 2016 at 8:48:56 PM

Those speeches strike me as the same situation as Obama's birth certificate (minus the racism of course). Even if she could and did release them people would still hold it against her even if there was nothing particularly offensive about them on their own.

I think it's fair to say that people who bring it up generally don't care about their actual contents; the fact that she did them in the first place is the damning part.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#128608: Jul 2nd 2016 at 8:51:06 PM

[up][up][awesome]

edited 2nd Jul '16 8:51:22 PM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
940131 Since: Feb, 2014
#128609: Jul 2nd 2016 at 8:52:26 PM

@Silasw I offered that to counter the idea that it was a true and heartfelt change, because she "evolved" on it with public opinion. She's a politician. I think it warrants scepticism she was againstit on the record before. I also said this.

@Hodor It's possible that her she legitimately changed her mind. It's possible that she didn't support the community out of political convenience. But Bernie Sanders has supported them for decades which is why it really bothers me that he's being demonized. People, check his record.

You may not have noticed that, because you're selectively reading my quotes. It's possible that she changed her opinion genuinely, but it's there's reason to doubt. All I'm saying is that it's possible she was politically motivated. If it was a genuine change, I think that's great.

2) Bernie layed out good reasons why her transcripts are important. Aside from that I doubt we'll agree so we should just move on.

Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#128610: Jul 2nd 2016 at 8:55:20 PM

[up]Strangely enough, politicians are human, too. tongue

The mistakes, lies, growth, sincerity, insincerity and forgetfulness? No more and no less than the average population.

You can trust me on that: I've been reading up on my backlog of irrationality studies recently. Because of the Brexit campaign, if you must know. Oh, and I did do cognition at uni. FYI.

edited 2nd Jul '16 8:56:05 PM by Euodiachloris

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#128611: Jul 2nd 2016 at 9:00:43 PM

The transcripts, if they had anything "juicy" would've leaked MONTHS ago. The fact that no one bothered, suggests whatever is on there isn't really worth talking about or getting upset over.

New Survey coming this weekend!
940131 Since: Feb, 2014
#128612: Jul 2nd 2016 at 9:09:40 PM

@Ambar 1) Do you deny that calling them super predators is offensive? I suppose it's fun to skew information. Here's the full context for anyone who's interested.

http://www.vox.com/2016/2/26/11116412/bernie-sanders-mass-incarceration

2) If it's no big deal, maybe she should just release them rather than have this this thing hang around forever. What does she have to hide?

3) When did I mention Egypt?

4)Do you deny that he supported the community before Clinton?

5) Really? Where did I say they were the exact same person? Apparently I said they were the same repearedly. Where was that? Can you give me a quote?

@LSBK I don't think it's like Obama's birth certificate at all.

edited 2nd Jul '16 9:18:47 PM by 940131

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#128613: Jul 2nd 2016 at 9:13:05 PM

[up] LOL what?! Have you only started following politics in the last year? Her releasing the transcripts would be the dumbest thing she could do.

All it takes is for one dumbass to take ONE quote out of context and everything goes straight to hell.

New Survey coming this weekend!
smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#128614: Jul 2nd 2016 at 9:18:21 PM

Again, how does it matter that he supported us first? She. Still. Supports. Us. And does so to an extent many politicians don't. Timeframe doesn't change that.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#128615: Jul 2nd 2016 at 9:23:23 PM

@Ambar: He wouldn't vote because he can't because he's not from the Untied States.

flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#128616: Jul 2nd 2016 at 9:27:20 PM

Then his opinion is kinda irrelevant, isn't it?

Non Indicative Username
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#128617: Jul 2nd 2016 at 9:28:41 PM

[up] In the same way that Ambar and Silasaw shouldn't be in this thread, yes. (I'm not saying they shouldn't, just pointing out the issue.)

smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#128618: Jul 2nd 2016 at 9:32:07 PM

Everyone is still allowed to have an opinion, and they have the right to state them/discuss them, regardless of country. But at the same time, everyone's opinions can be critiqued and the subjects debated.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#128619: Jul 2nd 2016 at 9:39:49 PM

1) Do you deny calling them sociopaths was offensive? Do you deny that voting for a bill makes you more responsible for it than simply saying "I support my husband's policies?" Sanders and Clinton both backed that bill, and both said some rather offensive things in doing so. Both have since retreated from their former support for it, and both now admit the bill was a mistake that had enormously negative longterm ramifications for the very community it was meant to protect. They are in short, on the exact same place on that damn bill, and always have been.

Also:

I suppose it's fun to skew information.

You would know I guess.

2) And Sanders should release his taxes for more than last year. What's he hiding? See how this argument goes both ways?

3) The Egypt bit was aimed at this poster here. It's not all about you; I'm responding to general attacks on Clinton.

4) Of course I deny it. Sanders came out for gay marriage post-election in 2008, at the same time when Clinton was hiring more openly gay staffers than at any point in State Department history and making it possible for transpeople to more easily put their choice of gender identity on their passports. Or did you miss that part of my last post? He changed his opinion, she changed how things worked on the ground, they did it at almost the exact same time.

5) You said it. You were asked if Clinton or Trump was better you said, you'd vote for neither. You then made the "no difference between them" argument here. EDIT: Removed my own line here; realized it was in bad taste.

@Captain Capsase

Neither am I. But I'm not saying that there's no choice between Trump and Clinton. He is.

edited 2nd Jul '16 10:35:06 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

940131 Since: Feb, 2014
#128620: Jul 2nd 2016 at 9:40:52 PM

@Smokeycut Fair enough. I was just questioning if she did it out of political convenience, but if she had a genuine change I think that's great. I support the community too. There's no need to get mad.smile

@Ambar 1) You've decided to dodge my question, huh? And I see you haven't read the explanation for why he supported the Bill or the rest of his statement. Is Super Predator an offensive term. Yes or no?

2) Another dodge.

3) You said they were my talking points so I had reason to assume you were adressing me. Frankly, I thought you'd adress my point about how the Clintons "handled" Monica Lewinsky.

4) http://feelthebern.org/bernie-sanders-on-lgbtq-rights/

These things aren't hard to find.

5) I said I'd vote for neither if I was American, because I don't think either of them are good. I think they're both pretty bad, In the post you linked to, you may also note I said Hilary isn't a maniac and has the right temperament to lead a country. I also said she's experienced, smart and would probably be a very competent President. I still don't see where I said they were exactly the same

edited 2nd Jul '16 9:54:20 PM by 940131

flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#128621: Jul 2nd 2016 at 9:52:21 PM

Everything will offend somebody on Earth, so that makes everything offensive. Yeah, Super Predator is offensive (makes one hell of a B-movie poster, though).

Non Indicative Username
940131 Since: Feb, 2014
#128622: Jul 2nd 2016 at 9:55:13 PM

African Americans say it was raciall offensive. I don't think it's our place to say it's not.

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#128623: Jul 2nd 2016 at 9:56:06 PM

[up][up]He has dreadlocks which ...blah blah blah...RACISM!

edited 2nd Jul '16 9:56:15 PM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#128624: Jul 2nd 2016 at 9:57:06 PM

[up][up][up] The pertinent issue here was that it was used as a dog whistle at the time; taken with the Clinton campaign's use of some very questionable attack ads during the 2008 campaign, and it baffles me that African Americans support her in the manner they do.

edited 2nd Jul '16 9:57:18 PM by CaptainCapsase

flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#128625: Jul 2nd 2016 at 9:57:17 PM

[up][up][up]It's also not our place to call it offensive either.

[up][up]Pretty enjoyable movie, still lack that "Super"-ness though.

edited 2nd Jul '16 10:01:30 PM by flameboy21th

Non Indicative Username

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