TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#128051: Jun 28th 2016 at 1:05:56 PM

[up][up][up] Which is why the United States rarely relies on a mere direct democracy majority vote to get anything serious done. You wouldn't have seen something like the Brexit Referendum happen in the United States... Instead, Texas's exit from the United States would be voted on by the Congress and Senate and then signed off by the President. However, Texas just can't decide to secede by themselves unless they can back that up with military might.

edited 28th Jun '16 1:08:05 PM by GameGuruGG

Wizard Needs Food Badly
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#128052: Jun 28th 2016 at 1:07:20 PM

See Black Nationalism and Black Separatism. Not quite the same thing.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
megarockman from The Sixth Borough (Experienced Trainee)
#128053: Jun 28th 2016 at 1:08:11 PM

Also, treaties require 2/3 of the Senate to ratify. Constitutional amendments require both the approval of Congress and ratification from 3/4 of the states.

The damned queen and the relentless knight.
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#128054: Jun 28th 2016 at 1:08:33 PM

And why, IIRC, the Congressional Congress that voted for independence in 1776 agreed that the vote needed to be unanimous to pass.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#128055: Jun 28th 2016 at 1:11:29 PM

Right. Some things are too important to be decided by a simple majority vote. See again: Hungary.

edited 28th Jun '16 1:11:39 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#128056: Jun 28th 2016 at 1:13:32 PM

That's the thing, isn't it? The USA, Canada, they were born of secession. Doesn't seem sensible that it always needs to be bloody. Difficult, yes. Like, requiring over three quarters of the eligible voters to vote for it. Or a combination of all three powers agreeing to it to a unanymous degree. Something that would take a lot of persuasion, compromise, and need. But there should be a way.

The best way to get someone to stop whining about not being able to do something is to make it attainable but difficult. If they go for it still, it means it's vital to them.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#128057: Jun 28th 2016 at 1:16:04 PM

Canada didn't seceede, they are still a Commonwealth country, self-governing but paying token allegiance to the British Crown.

BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#128058: Jun 28th 2016 at 1:20:00 PM

So a little more whimsical here, what would be the effects on the rest of the US if we did have a Texit?

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#128059: Jun 28th 2016 at 1:20:34 PM

[up][up]It's secession for all practical purposes. Or would you be okay with calling an arrangement where, say, Texas, was practically independent but nominally had allegiance to the Union a non-secession?

edited 28th Jun '16 1:21:05 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#128060: Jun 28th 2016 at 1:22:15 PM

Canada did do it but it did it legally.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
megarockman from The Sixth Borough (Experienced Trainee)
#128061: Jun 28th 2016 at 1:22:38 PM

[up][up][up]No way in hell the Dallas Cowboys can claim to be America's Team any further. And the Americans Are Cowboys trope would need to be reworked.

More seriously, it'd been my impression that a good deal of national level politics was to make arrangements where secession was the inferior choice on a cost-benefit analysis.

edited 28th Jun '16 1:31:13 PM by megarockman

The damned queen and the relentless knight.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#128062: Jun 28th 2016 at 1:32:11 PM

  • Texas would lose a lot of its ability to wag the dog with respect to education, due to no longer being able to exercise mass purchasing power over school textbooks.
  • Texas could build its own damn border wall if it wants to keep out immigrants.
  • Texas would no longer be able to receive federal subsidies for its health care, welfare, retirement security, education, and similar social systems.
  • Unless Texas created its own currency, it would still be bound to the Federal Reserve to backstop the dollar, but would lose its claim on federal stabilizers, so it would become subject to asymmetric debt-deflation crises, much as the Eurozone members are.
  • If Texas did create its own currency, one would wish it luck getting any American state to honor it in trade. Its markets would therefore have to continue trading in dollars, creating the same effect as if the dollar were its currency anyway.
  • Texas would no longer be able to leverage migration from the rest of the United States due to its cheap housing market to keep its labor pool supplied with fresh blood. In fact, a secession by Texas would drive a wave of emigration that could destabilize it before it even got started.
  • Texas would be home to a lot of military bases housing personnel and equipment that it could no longer afford to maintain without a lot of taxes that its newly liberated citizenry might not like that much. That or the U.S. would withdraw all military from Texas, leaving it to sink or swim on its own.

Lots of other things; these are just the start.

edited 28th Jun '16 1:37:34 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#128063: Jun 28th 2016 at 1:34:03 PM

The reason why Canada became independent is because the British Empire basically fell apart. The United Kingdom just decided one day to say "Cheerio, Canada! You are an independent nation now!" and Canada was like "Eh?!"

Wizard Needs Food Badly
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#128064: Jun 28th 2016 at 1:36:08 PM

[up] More like The British Empire was proving too expensive to run — one of the major reasons Canada became a Dominion was to transfer the costs of Defence away from Westminster.

Keep Rolling On
GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#128065: Jun 28th 2016 at 1:38:04 PM

[up] Yeah... If you can't afford to run an Empire, your Empire basically falls apart naturally.

edited 28th Jun '16 1:38:27 PM by GameGuruGG

Wizard Needs Food Badly
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#128066: Jun 28th 2016 at 1:40:31 PM

[up] ...and that is why The British Empire was run on a comparatively tiny budget. More then that, most of the Empire never made a profit.

Keep Rolling On
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#128067: Jun 28th 2016 at 1:45:01 PM

In a situation where Texas was granted independence, I can't see the US military just handing over all their various assets that happen to be based in Texas. Part of the secession deal would involve either the US military pulling out of Texas entirely, remaining in place but with the understanding that they're still US military assets on US military property (much how US military bases overseas work), or — most likely — some combination of the two.

Regarding currency, I can't see Texas not issuing their own currency if they became independent, as a politically independent Texas still economically shackled to the dollar would virtually be a puppet state. I have no idea how the creation of such a currency works, though. Would Independent Texas and the US agree on some sort of exchange rate, at least to begin with? Or would the markets be allowed to take the reins right from the start? (Which would certainly result in an interesting Independent Texas economy until things settled themselves.) That question may be better answered in the economics thread than the politics one, though.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#128068: Jun 28th 2016 at 1:48:32 PM

I mean, the problem with the military is that a very good chunk of soldiers come from Texas. Presumably, they would become part of the Texas Republic's military.

Leviticus 19:34
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#128069: Jun 28th 2016 at 2:00:26 PM

[up][up] Put simply, in deference to not being in the General Economics thread, Texas would issue ... Texasbucks... and exchange them with its citizens for dollars at a fixed rate. However, If the split were sufficiently acrimonious, U.S. markets might well refuse to accept them, forcing Texans to trade in dollars for anything outside their republic. This would chain Texas to the dollar every bit as effectively as remaining on it.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#128070: Jun 28th 2016 at 2:02:04 PM

[up][up]Yeah, but they by no means comprise the majority of the military and whatever military Texas could form simply wouldn't have the same numbers. Or the supplies, even if they claimed all current military installations within Texas borders. Not sure what problem you're talking about there, since it wouldn't be much of a problem at all for the US.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#128071: Jun 28th 2016 at 2:09:56 PM

~Elle, actually Canada broke off from Britain gradually but we don't pay token loyalty to the British Crown. Queen Elizabeth is Queen of Canada independent from her other titles.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#128072: Jun 28th 2016 at 2:24:33 PM

Even if Texas has soldiers and M4A1s and RPGs (no, not the Final Fantasy games). They still sorely lack navy, air force, and logistics. Their position on the map is a strategic nightmare and the U.S. can simply blockade them for a few years, if not a few months.

Non Indicative Username
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#128073: Jun 28th 2016 at 2:30:48 PM

[up][up]Seems a very minor difference since either way it amounts to the Queen being a figurehead?

edited 28th Jun '16 2:32:34 PM by Elle

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#128074: Jun 28th 2016 at 2:34:17 PM

[up][up]I believe in our hypothetical scenario, Texas would secede under peaceful conditions?

Leviticus 19:34
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#128075: Jun 28th 2016 at 2:35:07 PM

Hypothetically yes but what's stopping Mexico from annexing them or us just reabsorbing them by force?

Oh really when?

Total posts: 417,856
Top