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CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#127651: Jun 24th 2016 at 6:34:59 AM

Euod: Modern humans have existed tor around 200,000 years. That's pretty close to the average life expectancy of a species. Civilization has existed for a tiny fraction of that, about 6,000 years, and it's only been during the past 50 years that we developed technology capable of destroying civilization, during which there were dozens of close call ls which arose from little more than paranoia. The worrying radio silence of the cosmos doesn't bode well for be longevity of intelligent life either, and, in a debate on the subject with Carl Sagan, Ernst Mayr argued that intelligence is, in a matter of speaking, a lethal mutation; the more intelligent a species is, the less numerous (and thus less successful in biological terms) it tends to be; that only stopped applying to humans after the industrial revolution, a drop in an ocean compared to our history as a species.

There is very good reason to be worried about the future of human civilization; the question whether or not we are mature enough as a species to use technology responsibly will be answered one way or another in the 21st and 22nd centuries.

edited 24th Jun '16 6:37:17 AM by CaptainCapsase

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#127652: Jun 24th 2016 at 6:41:04 AM

[up][up] Low investment elections like that tend to have disproportionate turnout from the angry people, though.

A big problem in US politics, to tie this back to some semblance of the topic.

edited 24th Jun '16 6:41:22 AM by Ogodei

flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#127654: Jun 24th 2016 at 6:44:21 AM

[up][up]Depends on how you define "modern human". Given that I look at most of Homo erectus and go "human: modern", I tend to disagree. (We consistently sell them, H. ergaster and H, heidelbergensis very, very short by shoving walls between us all — when, I don't see "species" but "races" — of Erectus.)

Also, how you define the age of any given species. Some ants and spiders don't appear to have changed much over a couple of billion years, for example.

[up]Yup.

edited 24th Jun '16 6:45:30 AM by Euodiachloris

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#127655: Jun 24th 2016 at 6:45:24 AM

[up][up][up] The major fallout of Brexit isn't likely to hit until after the US elections, but right in time for midterm elections, so that won't be a problem.

[up] the point was there is a damn good reason for the doomsday clock to be as close to midnight as it is. As far as average species age, that can be interpreted optimistically as well, in the same fashion as the more general doomsday argument if we assume the eventual replacement of modern humankind by its posthuman descendants, which is the likely outcome if human civilization manages to survive the next few centuries.

edited 24th Jun '16 6:49:46 AM by CaptainCapsase

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#127656: Jun 24th 2016 at 7:00:26 AM

[up][up]Anatomically modern humans have existed for approximately 200,000 years, but behaviorally, the mutations that give us the ability to be culturally modern — specifically, complex language and abstract thinking — arose ~70,000 years ago. (reference)

It's only been in the last 300 years or so that we've become an industrial society capable of altering our environment on a massive scale; this coincided with a cultural shift away from basic subsistence to, essentially, wealth-seeking behavior. Our brains haven't quite caught up to this in an evolutionary sense, so we are still ruled by fear of the unknown and the other.

Unions of nations are designed to dispel those fears by bringing more and more people into our mental "tribes". The fewer "others" exist, the less motivation we have to abandon our social contract and go murder people. Ergo, any movement that is based on fomenting fear of "others" is a regression to a more primitive cultural state and should be suspect on that basis alone, never mind whether their politics are based on any kind of facts (they rarely are).

If the forces of nationalism win in Europe, we're looking at such a regression, but over an entire continent and in the face of one of the most powerful economic alliances in history. The outcomes of Leave votes, being driven by bad economics as well as by tribalism and fear, will be uniformly negative for the nations that choose them, leading to increased anger, which the ruling parties will direct outward to avoid being blamed. The march to conflict will be as historically inevitable as it will be (apparently) surprising to the people who are elected to lead these nations.

(And yes, I have argued for Greece to leave the Eurozone, but that's a different situation, and I never suggested they should leave the EU.)

edited 24th Jun '16 7:05:16 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#127657: Jun 24th 2016 at 7:05:38 AM

[up]I dispute that. Mainly because some of the "behaviours" people go on about turn out to consistently date back to a lot older all the time. Language: constantly gets shifted backwards. Abstract symbolic thought: ditto.

Most of the very early signs of "modern" behaviour probably haven't survived. Thanks to being made of skin, wood, bone and found in very unlikely places to allow preservation (seriously: rainforests and savannahs suck when it comes to monument preservation). Betcha archaic Erectus was tattooing and scarring skin decoratively before working out the technology to make pretty beads out of really hard stuff came along. Betcha.

Also betcha that various natural dyes could fetch a pretty... amount of marrowbone. Or whatever.

[down]Why, yes: I do dispute that video, thank you. I, for one, think they make the mistake of taking what little evidence there remains from deep time (and, it is very little) as the basis. When that has constantly shifted, as more evidence comes to light. I'm not expecting that trend to stop any time soon... mainly because said evidence tends to get found when people start to look at what is there in a new light, rather than finding something totally new. It's amazing how many anthropological screw-ups get identified, later. evil grin After all, when I was growing up, everybody knew Neanderthals weren't really human-human, but a much lesser cousin who couldn't talk properly, thanks to the lack of a correctly positioned hyoid bone, as well as other such "facts" (all disproven since). And, other such guff. Going by fire-use is making the mistake of assuming technology/ culture = cognitive baseline. It takes long while to make a lot of small discoveries that add up... during which they can get forgotten. Until you learn to make poetry... or write. tongue

edited 24th Jun '16 7:29:49 AM by Euodiachloris

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#127658: Jun 24th 2016 at 7:08:41 AM

Dispute what, the facts in the video? That's really outside the scope of this topic, but go argue with them, not with me. Humans have been tool-users for 2 million years, but it wasn't until 70K or so ago that our language and thinking abilities evolved to the point where we could build upon all of our past knowledge to systematically improve our future prospects rather than luck our way into new ideas.

edited 24th Jun '16 7:09:48 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
nightwyrm_zero Since: Apr, 2010
#127659: Jun 24th 2016 at 9:56:19 AM

Hey, hey! Don't besmirch Cassandra's name. Cassie was RIGHT. tongue

edited 24th Jun '16 9:56:47 AM by nightwyrm_zero

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#127660: Jun 24th 2016 at 9:57:18 AM

[up] Buy nobody ever believed her. Either way the door is now open to irony galore.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#127661: Jun 24th 2016 at 9:58:05 AM

Clinton and...sigh...Sanders weigh in on the Brexit. Leave it to Sanders to use it as proof that "the global economy isn't working for everyone" and taking yet another opportunity to rail about jobs moving to China.

PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#127662: Jun 24th 2016 at 10:01:13 AM

Technically they're all going to Vietnam.

And a lot of the stuff that lead to this mess does tie back to Thatcher and the general massive fuck up in handling the 2008 crisis, so he ain't wrong, per say.

Izeinsummer Since: Jun, 2013
#127663: Jun 24th 2016 at 10:04:59 AM

Economic malaise for the great mass of people -> Shitty politics. Honestly, at this point I'm mostly just hoping the remaining EU sees this as a reason to stop austerity, so that the thunderstorm of bad at least gets a silver lining.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#127664: Jun 24th 2016 at 10:06:45 AM

[up][up][up] Free trade by its very nature is something corporations would like to avoid, since, while they get the benefit of cheap labor, they also have to compete meaningfully with foreign companies, among other facets of free trade that tend to weaken big business. That's why pretty much every recent free trade agree has had a massive set of pro-corporate stipulations included in them. NAFTA still managed to be a net benefit to the economy in spite of that, but the trade deal under discussion now goes much further.

[up][up] Which is why Brexit is hopefully a wakeup call to the EU.

edited 24th Jun '16 10:18:17 AM by CaptainCapsase

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#127665: Jun 24th 2016 at 10:32:36 AM

"Trump says Brexit a model for his campaign" - http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0ZA1EC

Should this be where I say "That about says it all, right there"?

edited 24th Jun '16 10:33:58 AM by sgamer82

PotatoesRock Since: Oct, 2012
#127666: Jun 24th 2016 at 10:34:51 AM

[up][up] Which is why Brexit is hopefully a wakeup call to the EU.
It will. To tighten the vices harder and point to Britain as "That's what happens to you."

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#127667: Jun 24th 2016 at 10:40:39 AM

Yeah the wake up call is that popularism and referendums are not a toy. Cameron played with fire and the entire UK is now paying the price.

As for the EU as an institution, it needs to go on a charm offensive, the areas that the EU helped the moot are the ones that voted to give it the boot.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#127668: Jun 24th 2016 at 12:22:58 PM

Next up...TEXIT! tongue

"You can reply to this Message!"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#127669: Jun 24th 2016 at 12:23:22 PM

Fuck that noise. Texans have been trying to secede since before Texas was a state.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#127670: Jun 24th 2016 at 12:28:36 PM

Hey, I'm all for it. (Sorry, innocent people of Texas.)

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#127671: Jun 24th 2016 at 12:29:59 PM

Texas is like that annoying son who threatens to runaway every month if things don't go his way and when the parents say "then leave" he still sticks around because he can't bring his Xbox and TV with him.

Inter arma enim silent leges
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#127672: Jun 24th 2016 at 12:30:55 PM

It seems me you have to stretch things to make the two situations even vaguely equivalent.

FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#127673: Jun 24th 2016 at 12:32:32 PM

Fuck that noise indeed...but also take it seriously. In the age where Trump is a contender for the highest office of the land, the UK screws itself, and Congress sits on their hands and whistles, nothing can be taken for granted.

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#127674: Jun 24th 2016 at 1:00:19 PM

I thought Texas literally can't leave the US as things stand now. Something about the state constitution containing an option to split into 7 smaller states (I believe) but not containing anything about leaving entirely.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#127675: Jun 24th 2016 at 1:01:41 PM

Self determination is a big thing. If a majority of Texans voted to leave in a fair referendum...

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.

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