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Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#127551: Jun 23rd 2016 at 11:56:27 AM

You need Democracy and Capitalism both. With Democracy missing you inevitably end up with greater croneyism and inefficiency, but without capitalism you lack a mechanism for clearing out market inefficiencies.

Ordoliberalism is pretty close to a political ideal, aside from its dogged insistence on austerity economics, the idea that the government should be a strong actor enforcing fair play and fostering inclusion to paths to prosperity, countering free market forces where they create barriers, but ultimately making the markets work better.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#127552: Jun 23rd 2016 at 12:03:56 PM

[up] Socialism isn't inherently incompatible with market systems, and pretty much all serious modern conceptions of a socialist system are market based for that reason. Moreover, we already live in a mixed-economy, and ongoing technological developments seem likely to force that economy much closer to the "socialist" side of the sliding scale than it currently is.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#127553: Jun 23rd 2016 at 12:04:45 PM

aside from its dogged insistence on austerity economics
That's a pretty big "aside". Ordoliberalism places controlling the inflation boogeyman above all reason.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#127555: Jun 23rd 2016 at 12:08:56 PM

Ironically, Hitler rode to power on the back of deflation. All anyone remembers is the Weimar hyperinflation, but that's not what brought things to a head. More devolutions to autocracy have come from deflationary cycles than inflationary ones, but the historians don't seem to grasp this basic point.

edited 23rd Jun '16 12:12:19 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#127556: Jun 23rd 2016 at 12:09:46 PM

Hitler rode to power on the back of the Great Depression, so yes. That was a proper deflation crisis.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#127557: Jun 23rd 2016 at 12:13:25 PM

Yep. Deflationary cycles make debt repayment impossible, leading to cascading business and personal bankruptcies and sapping demand, since everyone is desperately trying to save money at the same time. Hyperinflation is fundamentally a supply crisis — manufacture enough stuff to satisfy people and you fix it. Deflation is a demand crisis, requiring fiscal solutions, and conservatives hate, hate, hate the idea of the government giving people money.

Greece, Portugal, Spain... their current crises are not ones of excessive profligacy but of capital flows: large influxes of lending drove up inflation, then when the money stopped, their banks couldn't devalue the currency to compensate because they were chained to the euro. Ergo, their demand fell while their debt loads remained unchanged, forcing a crisis.

This is textbook macro. The reasons we've escaped the worst of it in the U.S. are that the Federal Reserve was allowed to engage in full deflation-fighting policy, and that Obama managed to get a small but important stimulus package passed.

edited 23rd Jun '16 12:18:06 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#127558: Jun 23rd 2016 at 12:18:04 PM

Modern conservatives influenced by Thatcher, Reagan and their equivalents, probably.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#127559: Jun 23rd 2016 at 12:24:07 PM

[up] Not just conservatives, but also those of post-Cold War "Third Way" left.

edited 23rd Jun '16 12:24:30 PM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#127560: Jun 23rd 2016 at 12:51:23 PM

Most of what I currently remember about macroeconomics is that the Fed's policy through my parents and my lifetime has been one of encouraging slow, controlled inflation as a safety valve against big swings in either direction.

edited 23rd Jun '16 12:51:39 PM by Elle

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#127561: Jun 23rd 2016 at 1:01:23 PM

The Fed is currently too fixated on the magic 2% headline inflation target, which is way too low for sustained growth; it should be 4%. Inflation paranoia lives even here.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#127562: Jun 23rd 2016 at 1:20:43 PM

What about the problem of wages not keeping pace with inflation? (I don't know how or if that's solvable with fiscal policy but I'm aware it's an issue.)

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#127563: Jun 23rd 2016 at 1:24:18 PM

I think that's more a worker's rights issue than a proper inflation issue.

Oh really when?
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#127564: Jun 23rd 2016 at 1:30:43 PM

[up][up]Well, first, that's kind of oxymoronic, since wage growth is a significant component of inflation, and the lack of it is one of the things that's kept our headline number so low. Part of the reason why smart people in the economy are so concerned about the Fed's professed desire to raise interest rates at the earliest opportunity is that wage pressure is still virtually nonexistent.

That said, stimulatory measures such as infrastructure spending, direct transfers ("helicopter money", welfare, minimum basic income), public health insurance, tax breaks/credits on lower-income earners, debt forgiveness, and so on, add to wage pressure as they (a) increase demand, driving job creation, (b) increase the labor market resilience of workers. By the latter, I mean that they let workers be pickier about what jobs they take and what wages they ask for.

edited 23rd Jun '16 3:14:37 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#127565: Jun 23rd 2016 at 1:41:31 PM

The owner of the property of the Sacramento, California church where a pastor praised the mass shooting at a gay club in Orlando is telling church to leave immediately.

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#127566: Jun 23rd 2016 at 1:42:05 PM

Good

Oh really when?
smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#127567: Jun 23rd 2016 at 1:49:01 PM

Reminds me of that XKCD comic about free speech and "showing you the door".

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#127568: Jun 23rd 2016 at 1:51:16 PM

It's a tennant-landlord situation with a lease contract; I'm not sure they can do more than ask if the lease hasn't been violated and the comment seems to imply as much.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#127569: Jun 23rd 2016 at 1:53:32 PM

[up]

  1. "Tenant" is the occupant in a lease; "Tennant" is a British actor.
  2. Many leases contain morality clauses allowing the owner to terminate if the tenant does anything illegal, and hate speech could be classified as illegal.

edited 23rd Jun '16 1:54:15 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#127570: Jun 23rd 2016 at 2:00:19 PM

It would have to go through an eviction hearing if they tried to do that though (may vary depending on state law).

Though there is another option, they can decline to renew the lease if it's coming up soon.

Also, insert image macro of the 10th Doctor here.

edited 23rd Jun '16 2:02:29 PM by Elle

tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#127571: Jun 23rd 2016 at 2:07:32 PM

Something I should've pointed out was tat the lease was up at the end of March, 2017 and the church wasn't going to get any penalty for breaking the lease.

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#127572: Jun 23rd 2016 at 2:14:48 PM

I'm not saying the landlord is doing anything shady, I'm saying that if the church says "no way" I don't believe the landlord has recourse (again, depending on state laws).

It's a fine and laudable statement but it might not have any teeth.

edited 23rd Jun '16 2:16:29 PM by Elle

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#127573: Jun 23rd 2016 at 2:35:42 PM

@Fighteer: This is the US, so I very much doubt if hate speech is illegal under any but the most tortured interpretations of the law. note 

Technically, the only thing the business park owner has done so far is say please, and agree that they won't penalize the church for breaking the lease agreement if they move. If the church refuses, then they can take it to court and probably lose.

edited 23rd Jun '16 2:36:02 PM by Ramidel

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#127574: Jun 23rd 2016 at 2:48:15 PM

I assume it has already been said here, but I just read the statement "Orange shouldn't be the new Black" for the presidential election, and this got a chuckle out of me.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#127575: Jun 23rd 2016 at 3:00:56 PM

On the church situation, the landlord isn't kicking them out immediately, he's simply stating that he will not renew the lease with them and that when it expires they will have to find somewhere else.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

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