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CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#127451: Jun 22nd 2016 at 4:09:17 PM

[up] It would almost immediately be captured by elite interests to form a de facto aristocracy in the same way civil service exams were captured by the aristocracy in Imperial China.

edited 22nd Jun '16 4:09:28 PM by CaptainCapsase

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#127452: Jun 22nd 2016 at 4:09:21 PM

@Captain Capsase

If the institution is going to prevent people from getting legislation passed doesn't it follow that no candidate, including Sanders, would have deserved progressive support?

Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland Since: Nov, 2010
Overlording the Underworld
#127453: Jun 22nd 2016 at 4:10:15 PM

I didn't say it was the worst idea ever. It isn't likely to work well because those same ADD-prone idiots would fight over it. And how good it is really depends on who writes it. It's likely to be written by the same exact quality of person we have in office now. Which will only go to protect the status quo.

FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#127454: Jun 22nd 2016 at 4:11:31 PM

[up][up][up]It's already an aristrocracy, we call it by the term "Establishment". It's not necessarily a bad thing either, since said class tends to know how to bloody run a country, even if they are bland as hell ideologically. As long as, with effort, any citizen can join in, I don't see why thats a problem.

[up]It is possible to make an exam by professionals. Is it easy? No. But possible.

edited 22nd Jun '16 4:13:29 PM by FFShinra

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#127455: Jun 22nd 2016 at 4:13:07 PM

I wanted to share this. It's a post from Scott Adams and I wonder if he doesn't have a point despite some issues I have with the phrasing.

http://blog.dilbert.com/post/146307088451/why-gun-control-cant-be-solved-in-the-usa

edited 22nd Jun '16 4:18:28 PM by sgamer82

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#127456: Jun 22nd 2016 at 4:18:34 PM

@Ambar: Precisely. A single candidate, regardless of what they are saying, is normally irrelevant* given the nature of political institutions. Sanders was calling for a mass movement. It didn't happen this cycle, unfortunately, and if he'd actually won the primary in spite of such a movement failing to materialize, it would theoretically fall upon progressives to support him just enough that he got into office over Trump. In practice, Sanders is probably the furthest left an American politician will get within our lifetimes and still be able to win elections, and unfortunately there's probably many progressive who'd be uncomfortable about going much further.

*The right person at the right place at the right time can make a difference; not a huge one, but a meaningful difference.

@FF Shinra: Within about 2 months of this system being implemented, the test is reduced to a single question: Who is your daddy, and what does he do?

edited 22nd Jun '16 4:22:50 PM by CaptainCapsase

Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland Since: Nov, 2010
Overlording the Underworld
#127457: Jun 22nd 2016 at 4:23:49 PM

Agreed, he does have a point. Another big point against new laws is that there are already quite a few on the books that aren't enforced as it is. If they were, we'd already have a more strict set-up. And if they're not, then it's unlikely the new laws will be enforced for long either. It's all a big show for our sake. The only ones that will get enforced are the ones that benefit the government. Like the gun tax that was introduced for the express purpose of funding WW 2 that was never taken off the books, and never will be.

If new laws they make have to do with enforcing already existing laws, they'll have my respect. Chances are they're just going to sweep the old ones under the rug and make up new stuff instead.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#127458: Jun 22nd 2016 at 4:26:11 PM

Scott Adams is either an alt-right lunatic or a brilliantly successful troll. Opinions differ as to which is the case, but one or the other is certainly true. Either way, you can pretty safely ignore basically everything he says.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland Since: Nov, 2010
Overlording the Underworld
#127459: Jun 22nd 2016 at 4:28:56 PM

I don't know. He boils it down to both sides being valid, both sides being afraid, and us being stupid if we think there's an easy answer. Seems pretty damn insightful to me.

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#127460: Jun 22nd 2016 at 4:30:24 PM

The only reason elected officials don't require [testing] is because it is assumed they are competent from "the genius of the people."

Mighty big assumption, that. It's possible, for example, to be elected Sheriff without having any prior experience in law enforcement, or even knowledge of civil or criminal law.

edited 22nd Jun '16 4:33:25 PM by pwiegle

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#127461: Jun 22nd 2016 at 4:30:30 PM

[up][up]Yeah. My main issue is "Democrats use guns to kill people" and the repeat of "I support Hillary for my own safety" apropos of nothing else in the article.

edited 22nd Jun '16 4:31:08 PM by sgamer82

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#127462: Jun 22nd 2016 at 4:30:41 PM

What I meant was that election-by-lottery would need an exam component; it would be both an opt-in mechanisim and at least a very base measure of competency (do you understand the Constitution? The basics of US history?) Stuff a high school graduate should (but doesn't always know). If you wanted to raise the bar, maybe some basic level of things like scientific and economic literacy.

Though, applying it to the current system...maybe it would create a layer of aristocracy, but we already *do* have (and to some degree always have had) a political aristocracy; maybe it would be better than having elected officials who are willfully ignorant of many of the things they insist on making laws about (women's biology, anyone?).

edited 22nd Jun '16 4:32:12 PM by Elle

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#127463: Jun 22nd 2016 at 4:31:29 PM

Care to substantiate that?

@Movement: the drive to push his followers to support downticket candidates has already started. The struggle continues.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#127465: Jun 22nd 2016 at 4:35:37 PM

[up][up][up] The system is already pretty effective at excluding people on those grounds. That doesn't stop people from campaigning on that sort of basis. Do you seriously the GOP elite believe their own lies about climate change, for example? Attempting to enforce a technocracy is an effort almost guaranteed to backfire.

edited 22nd Jun '16 4:43:17 PM by CaptainCapsase

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#127466: Jun 22nd 2016 at 4:37:59 PM

Some of them? Yes. But some of it is also taking the line fed to them by the fossil fuel industry as truth, probably.

edited 22nd Jun '16 4:40:34 PM by Elle

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#127467: Jun 22nd 2016 at 4:40:50 PM

[up] I'm more talking about the party bosses, the people who should, in theory, be in charge of the party, ie the Bush family and pals, not lunatics like Trump and Cruz who should, in theory, not be in charge of the party. The corporate Republicans.

edited 22nd Jun '16 4:41:36 PM by CaptainCapsase

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#127468: Jun 22nd 2016 at 4:41:26 PM

He boils it down to both sides being valid,

Until someone provides a actual proper argument for why the ATF shouldn't be allowed to use computers, the CDC shouldn't be allowed to fund gun violence research or background checks shouldn't be mandatory I'm not seeing how both sides are valid.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#127469: Jun 22nd 2016 at 4:46:39 PM

Indeed. False equivalencies are the poison of political compromise.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#127470: Jun 22nd 2016 at 4:51:31 PM

[up][up][up]That would require a level of insider knowledge I'm not privy to. It's possible, maybe probable, that willful distortion does happen, but I'm biased toward the liberal application of Hanlon's Razor. I tend not to bring up the accusation of conspiracy unless there's at least some concrete evidence to cast suspicion with.

But yes, I do believe a lot of our congresscritters are really that stupid.

edited 22nd Jun '16 4:51:43 PM by Elle

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#127471: Jun 22nd 2016 at 4:57:49 PM

Someone I talked to today had a really interesting read on the current Republican party. His thought experiment was basically "how would someone perceive the Republican Party if all they could see was the policies the Republicans support or oppose."

He ended up with the idea that the Republican goal is apparently to render as many people as possible dead or injured through preventable means and then block their attempts to get healthcare. While that is a...really extreme view, they kind of are getting there.

RabidTanker God-Mayor of Sim-Kind Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
God-Mayor of Sim-Kind
#127472: Jun 22nd 2016 at 5:00:49 PM

So a few months ago, there was an approved law that raised the minimum age for the average person should be to buy an pack of cigarettes by an few years. Which in turn, sparked an debate with my mom on when Congress will pass an law that does the same on buying and drinking liquor. My answer was along the lines of,"Give it an few more DUI-induced deaths, they already wait until someone dies at an intersection before they install an traffic-controlling device". To make it so bad, we both agreed that I'm kind of right on how lethargic the legislative government can be when it comes to public safety.

So I was wondering that is it wrong to expect the government to quickly rectify an problem by eliminating the source of it by passing an new law or building safety equipment before tragedy strikes.

Answer no master, never the slave Carry your dreams down into the grave Every heart, like every soul, equal to break
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#127473: Jun 22nd 2016 at 5:04:54 PM

Regarding warrants, I think (with misgivings) that the decision was correct, but that it shows a major problem with the exclusionary rule: Police aren't usually punished for violating your Fourth Amendment rights. What are you going to do, sue the police department for illegally stopping you? (A private lawsuit against the police requires you to be someone that they already would be real damn careful about stopping. Otherwise, you won't have the money to fight City Hall.)

In this case, going with Sotomayor's dissent would mean essentially that the "fruit of the poisonous tree" doctrine means that the guy, having been illegally stopped and a warrant found, should be given a Mercy Lead. That doesn't make sense; the warrant was already valid. What should be done is that the cops who made the illegal stop in the first place should face a punishment, the guy who was arrested should have grounds to file a lawsuit against the government, and we need better tools to allow for the latter. (Punitive damages against the government are a bad social policy idea; punitive damages against officers of the government who violate people's rights, however...)

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#127474: Jun 22nd 2016 at 5:07:34 PM

@Elle: In at least a few cases, there's direct evidence linking the organized climate change disinformation campaigns to GOP politicians, in several cases some pretty senior ones.

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#127475: Jun 22nd 2016 at 5:07:45 PM

[up][up][up]The drinking age was already raised from 18 to 21 almost two generations ago and the US is actually exceptional in that (most of the western world still has it at 18). Also, I think it's all state laws controlling alcohol and tobacco age limits.

The sentiment of the comment remains but it could be just that for almost everything, government tends to move at the speed of...well, government.

[up]Care to substantiate that?

edited 22nd Jun '16 5:09:55 PM by Elle


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