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CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#127401: Jun 22nd 2016 at 8:50:15 AM

@Fighteer: I'm going to have to disagree with your assertion that the masses are blatantly stupid and that its the job of politicians to restrain that stupidity. The interplay between the upper and lower strata of society is not fundamentally different in a democracy than it is in nondemocratic systems; each class pursues its own interest, and in cases where the interests of the ruling class diverge from those of the working class, the ruling class will leverage their status in society (and their superior access to knowledge) to benefit themselves at the expense of the working class up until the point where the working class refuses to tolerate further oppression. The major innovation that democracy brings to the table is providing a mechanism for class warfare to occur without the "warfare" part becoming literal. The expectation of resistance from the working class is the main mechanism working against regression into more oppressive modes of government, and it is the same resistance that catalyzes almost all positive societal change.

edited 22nd Jun '16 9:03:24 AM by CaptainCapsase

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#127402: Jun 22nd 2016 at 8:55:11 AM

Even if the case were tossed on the basis of the unconstitutional detention, they could simply wait for you to exit the courtroom and then re-arrest you.

But the door opened by this SCOTUS decision is a world in which police could set up checkpoints where every person has to stop and be checked for outstanding warrants, something that is antithetical to our principles.

This is pretty much the core of the issue, for me. On the one hand, you can't un-arrest someone if they get picked up for an outstanding warrant after an unconstitutional stop, but on the other we don't want to make it okay to stop literally random people just so you can have them checked for outstanding warrants. There's no simple, easy, obvious solution.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#127403: Jun 22nd 2016 at 9:30:04 AM

The expectation of resistance from the working class is the main mechanism working against regression into more oppressive modes of government, and it is the same resistance that catalyzes almost all positive societal change.
Tell that to the "working class" that was in favor of keeping blacks enslaved and, later, segregated, to the point where "elites" had to step in with guns to make them cut it out.

Your faith in the righteousness of the common man over the elite is deeply misplaced — which is not to say that the converse is also true: there is nothing inherent to one's class or station that grants one special access to truth or wisdom. Technocrats live in epistemic closure; dictators fall into self-worship; the unwashed masses rise up and put everyone they don't like to the guillotine; representative governments turn into oligarchies; there is no end to how dumb people can be, and no magic answer.

edited 22nd Jun '16 9:33:56 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#127404: Jun 22nd 2016 at 9:31:54 AM

Keep in mind that whatever his personal motives he did pledge allegiance to ISIS in his final hours. Then again that could have also been part of the revenge plan, he would disgrace the Muslim community and his family, thus getting back at them for their mistreatment of him.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
carbon-mantis Collector Of Fine Oddities from Trumpland Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Married to my murderer
Collector Of Fine Oddities
#127405: Jun 22nd 2016 at 9:37:44 AM

A Tennessee congressional candidate has dispensed with the niceties and is openly campaigning as a white supremacist.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#127406: Jun 22nd 2016 at 9:38:17 AM

He pledged loyalty to ISIS, Al Qaeda and a couple other Al whatevers that are actually at war with ISIS.

If he was really with ISIS they probably would have beheaded over that.

Oh really when?
ILoveDogs Since: May, 2010
#127407: Jun 22nd 2016 at 9:40:50 AM

[up][up] No shit? Damn, he bit the slogan from Trump, too...I feel like someone ought to bring that up.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#127408: Jun 22nd 2016 at 9:52:45 AM

Police have generally been required to have a prima facie reason to detain and question any person as part of their Fourth Amendment protection against unreasonable search and seizure. That the Supreme Court would dismiss this is troubling.

In addition to the points already raised, the officer stopped him in the first place because an anonymous tip was phoned in accusing him of illegal drugs. There was a reason for the stop beyond him just "looking suspicious". The chain of events is:

  • Anonymous tip reported drug crime.
  • Officer staked out the house.
  • Officer stopped the reported individual.
  • Officer ran his information and found an arrest warrant.
  • Suspect arrested and searched.
  • Drug paraphernalia was found during the search, validating the original tip.

Ultimately, the precedent this case sets is that police are allowed to investigate you if someone calls the police and says you're committing a crime. Which I'm pretty sure was already established.

edited 22nd Jun '16 9:55:37 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#127409: Jun 22nd 2016 at 10:09:29 AM

I thought police already had the right to just stop random people? Isn't that what "setting up a road block" is all about?

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#127410: Jun 22nd 2016 at 10:15:28 AM

@Fighteer: You bring up racism and slavery as examples, but in the latter case, the American Civil war was a crisis which originated more or less exclusively from the white southern aristocracy, in particular the military elite of the country, which were disproportionately of southern origin. Take them out of the picture (which requires an economy in the south that is not dependent on forced labor), and slavery is banned with little more than an easily suppressed riot here or there, much like it was in pretty much every other western nation. The same class formed the core of the KKK and similar groups which carried out a campaign of terror against blacks that continues to this day in a much diminished form.

The pertinent point is that virtually all of the "blatant stupidity" of the general public is either shared with (racism and so on) or originates from (climate change denial) sectors of the ruling class of society; neither is evil, but they are both (in aggregate) inherently self interested.* Which is why I insist continuous pressure from the masses is an integral part of the political process; without such pressure, the natural tendency of policymaking is to empower the ruling class to further exploit the working class, until such a point where the working class is fully subjugated, and power struggles between different sectors of the ruling class become the dominant force of social evolution.

* Self interest hear includes close relatives, friends, and people of (perceived) similar backgrounds.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#127411: Jun 22nd 2016 at 10:15:33 AM

[up][up][up]And the current state of things is problematic enough as it is.

edited 22nd Jun '16 10:25:13 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#127412: Jun 22nd 2016 at 10:28:14 AM

Looking at CNN on TV and right now it's Trump speaking (no volume so not sure what he's saying) but the tagline was saying Clinton "lacked the temperament for the Presidency."

I'll just let that speak for itself.

ILoveDogs Since: May, 2010
#127413: Jun 22nd 2016 at 10:30:33 AM

I read his speech. It was mostly rehashing Clinton conspiracy theories, but one notable thing was that he seems to be moderating on Muslims-he gave lip service to peaceful Muslims. Not sure how that will go over.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#127414: Jun 22nd 2016 at 10:39:50 AM

[up]Some, he assumes, are good people.

House Democrats Stage Sit In Over Gun Legislation. "Stage" being the appropriate word. While I agree with the intent and the substance of what they're doing, the style could use a bit of toning down.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Xopher001 Since: Jul, 2012
#127415: Jun 22nd 2016 at 10:45:01 AM

There's an amendment about to be passed in the Senate that would give the FBI the power to obtain people's browsing history without a warrant

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#127416: Jun 22nd 2016 at 10:47:02 AM

Anything but that!just bugs mejust bugs mejust bugs mejust bugs me

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#127417: Jun 22nd 2016 at 10:59:57 AM

[up][up][up] Isn't this what the Republicans have been doing since Obama took office?

Wizard Needs Food Badly
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#127418: Jun 22nd 2016 at 11:11:18 AM

There was a reason for the stop beyond him just "looking suspicious".
While this is true, it's worth mentioning that the stop was determined to be unconstitutional by lower courts and the Supreme Court did not reverse that decision. The ruling isn't that the original stop was legitimate, it's that the arrest (and search) was legitimate because of the outstanding warrant despite the stop being unconstitutional.

edited 22nd Jun '16 11:11:53 AM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#127419: Jun 22nd 2016 at 11:27:05 AM

Yeah if the opening stop was legitimate then everything would be fine, it's confusing because (for reasons I don't understand) it's apparently not okay to stop a guy seem coming out of a place that's been reported to be a drug den.

I don't think that, under any circumstances, "some of those people used this person for sex" implies "it was okay for him to go Carrie on them and the entire scene".

Thing is there's no actual indication that he was used for sex, we're going off a second hand news report of what an supposed ex boyfriend said to another network about what the killer's motive might have been. That's shaky as shit, we can maybe estimate that the killer felt he'd been used, but that may well have been a delusion of the killer's bought about by him suppressing his homosexuality.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#127420: Jun 22nd 2016 at 12:08:49 PM

Handle, your comment could have done with a sarcasm marker, is all.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#127421: Jun 22nd 2016 at 12:19:46 PM

I wasn't being sarcastic. I would be extremely uncomfortable with the government getting their hands on my internet history without a damned good reason!

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
megarockman from The Sixth Borough (Experienced Trainee)
#127422: Jun 22nd 2016 at 12:23:53 PM

@: Washington Post reports it's been rejected by Senate. I'd link article but I've reached my free reading limit (stupid paywalls).

edited 22nd Jun '16 12:24:26 PM by megarockman

The damned queen and the relentless knight.
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#127423: Jun 22nd 2016 at 12:44:34 PM

Rubio's gonna get steamrolled trying to keep his seat this time, if only because now it's painfully obvious that he doesn't want the job (if he had been committed to the Senate as a backup if his campaign failed, that would be one thing).

speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#127424: Jun 22nd 2016 at 12:50:36 PM

[up][up] Here's a link. All I gotta say is, good.

edited 22nd Jun '16 12:50:47 PM by speedyboris

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#127425: Jun 22nd 2016 at 12:52:35 PM

The ruling isn't that the original stop was legitimate, it's that the arrest (and search) was legitimate because of the outstanding warrant despite the stop being unconstitutional.
And this is the part that is troubling. It implies that the police could unconstitutionally stop people for the specific purpose of determining if they have outstanding warrants.

edited 22nd Jun '16 12:52:51 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

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