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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#127126: Jun 20th 2016 at 9:32:50 AM

Small businesses are inherently punishable by virtue of their owners being directly liable (partnerships). I don't see why you'd need an Act of Congress to create a corporation, though. Seems to be taking things a bit far. We're well past the mercantilism stage.

edited 20th Jun '16 9:33:59 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#127127: Jun 20th 2016 at 9:33:02 AM

Corporate personhood has nothing to do with free speech. It's a concept that exists so that groups of people can have the same legal abilities and properties as individual people. A class action lawsuit, for example. Or paying out money.

The problem with Citizens United is that it gives undue protection to campaign finance spending. Remember that a lot of megadonors are not groups, corporate personhood does not apply here.

Yes, the gun used at Sandy Hook was originally Nancy Lanza's one.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#127128: Jun 20th 2016 at 9:44:54 AM

Question, Fighteer:

If you don't think corporations have constitutional rights, how does that apply to, say, the right against unreasonable search and seizure? If a building is owned by a corporation, rather than by an individual, does that mean police should be able to search the building and confiscate property at will, no warrant needed?

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#127129: Jun 20th 2016 at 9:48:26 AM

It's still private property. That doesn't change just because no one person owns it. Anyway, Citizens United specifically has to do with the First Amendment rights of corporations, not their Fourth Amendment rights.

edited 20th Jun '16 9:50:18 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#127130: Jun 20th 2016 at 9:56:21 AM

Corporate Personhood is a fundamental foundation of Corporate Law. You can't just unilaterally get rid of it entirely, just because of the boneheaded decision by Citizen's United.

New Survey coming this weekend!
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#127131: Jun 20th 2016 at 9:58:21 AM

@ Fighteer: So you're not against the concept of a joint-stock company?

And don't you know that a State, or a Town Council is actually a corporationnote ?

[up] Indeed, it's what everything else rests upon. Corporate Law (for all sizes of businesses), Contract Law...in fact it's hard to think of a country (perhaps North Korea) where corporate personhood doesn't exist.

edited 20th Jun '16 10:01:02 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#127132: Jun 20th 2016 at 10:05:55 AM

[up][up][up] And expressing an opinion is still expressing an opinion, even if it's being expressed by a group rather than an individual.

vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#127133: Jun 20th 2016 at 10:44:50 AM

How would ending Citizens United affect class-action lawsuits?

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#127134: Jun 20th 2016 at 1:02:00 PM

Tactical Fox 88: Understood, but it is not a natural person, and the distinction matters. I believe that only natural persons can have the protections enumerated in the Bill of Rights. It's worth noting that there was a strong dislike for corporations among the Founders and it was a long time before they attained the exalted status and privileges that they enjoy today.

Raven Wilder: Groups do not have opinions. Individuals do. As CEO of AwesomeCorp, you have free speech rights. AwesomeCorp should not, because that essentially gives you a double-voice. "The Democratic Party", or "Westboro Baptist Church" are not people capable of expression, and one should not gain special privileges of speaking because one does so as a collective entity.

Edit: To be clear, I mean that one may speak for a group of people as their representative or spokesperson — that's fine. But I believe that one may not incorporate as AwesomeCorp and gain free speech rights as that legal person.

Vandro: It should not affect them at all.

edited 20th Jun '16 1:16:06 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#127135: Jun 20th 2016 at 1:46:41 PM

Massive article on where Trump's appeal comes from and who plans to vote for him and why.

Not finished reading, but a couple things so far stand out:

  • Trump performs best among self-described "moderates" rather than "very conservative" voters.
  • Of all the things his supporters bring up, the number one thing that keeps coming up again and again is the idea that he's uncorrupted and can't be bought.

I suspect that his supporters want to believe that he can't be bought. They want a hero. They want to believe that he is here to save them.

To assess voters’ outlook on economic policy, respondents were asked questions like whether they support labor unions, higher taxes on the wealthy, a higher minimum wage and government-funded health care. The further left their answers were, the more likely they were to support Trump.

THAT is totally understandable. "Conservatives" aren't as far right on all the issues as we may have been led to believe, and certainly as the Republican establishment liked to convince themselves of.

edited 20th Jun '16 1:47:29 PM by BonsaiForest

flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#127136: Jun 20th 2016 at 1:48:09 PM

Guess who else can't be bought? The Joker.

edited 20th Jun '16 1:48:47 PM by flameboy21th

Non Indicative Username
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#127137: Jun 20th 2016 at 1:52:04 PM

Sure he can. Then he burns the money with an accountant on top of the pile.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#127138: Jun 20th 2016 at 1:53:36 PM

Not surprised about that appeal to self-perceived moderates. He is a moderate in comparison to other GOP candidates, and the unkeepable promises that Republican politicians have made to appease the Tea Party (and probably a bit of self-delusion) have probably lowered the bar for "trustworthy".

Also, is it absolutely necessary to shove TRUMP in big allcaps letters into the face of whoever reads that article?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#127139: Jun 20th 2016 at 1:54:28 PM

At rallies, it’s common to run into Trump voters who say they used to vote for Democrats or had supported other “outsider” candidates like Ron Paul or Ross Perot in the past. Some even say they admire Bernie Sanders for challenging the usual two-party system.

Dan Powers, a 51-year old Trump supporter from Wisconsin who runs a business installing electronic systems, described himself as “more Democratic than Republican,” but complained that the Democrats he supports “never make it to the front of the line.”

Powers did not vote for Obama, whom he considers hostile to gun rights, and he doesn’t like Hillary Clinton either. Republicans usually left him cold, as well. When the tea party movement took off, Powers said he had little interest.

When Trump came to Janesville for a rally, however, Powers donned an oversized paper mask of the candidate’s face to cheer him on.

“We need to lock the borders down,” Powers said.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#127140: Jun 20th 2016 at 1:54:47 PM

None of that is anything new though, we've known for a while that Trump's primary demographic is the remnants of the Dixiecrats.

White working class males who want financial security, worker's rights, decent pay, and of course an ethnically pure nation.

Oh really when?
BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#127141: Jun 20th 2016 at 1:57:32 PM

What does surprise me a bit, though, is this:

A March Washington Post/ABC News poll found that Republicans who saw themselves as “struggling economically” were more likely to support Trump. Even more drawn to his candidacy, however, were Republicans who felt whites were “losing out” compared to other racial groups. Economically-minded supporters, the Post found, backed Trump no matter their views on race, while racially-minded supporters backed Trump regardless of their views on the economy.

Meaning he has a lot of single-issue voters.

edited 20th Jun '16 1:57:45 PM by BonsaiForest

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#127142: Jun 20th 2016 at 1:58:46 PM

Nope, sounds about right. They're classic white working class nationalists.

Oh really when?
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#127143: Jun 20th 2016 at 1:59:22 PM

According to Cracked, the #1 trait that Trump voters share is that they want revenge on someone.

Leviticus 19:34
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#127144: Jun 20th 2016 at 1:59:27 PM

[up][up][up][up][up]

If the Democrats had picked Sanders, they'd be on their way to a landslide victory, and the most progressive president in over half a century. He's got the characteristics that many of the Trump voters want to think Trump has - he's not beholden to corporate lobbyists, he's genuinely honest and sincere - and he's a strong economic progressive who favours free college, a higher minimum wage, and universal health care. Instead, they chose the only politician in the country who rivals Trump in unpopularity. The Dems are so scared of shifting to the left that they may have lost this election by going to the centre.

edited 20th Jun '16 1:59:54 PM by Galadriel

BonsaiForest Since: Jan, 2001
#127145: Jun 20th 2016 at 2:00:50 PM

It also says that "a significant 44 percent of Trump supporters favored legalization" of immigrants.

Like I said, a lot of single-issue people willing to overlook or accept his views on other issues.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#127146: Jun 20th 2016 at 2:00:58 PM

Ah, the self perceived loser demographic again. People who see their life expectancy dropnote , Dixiecrats who cannot put up with a black president, evangelicals who see themselves as marginalized, Republicans who perceive their party as serving them off to the plutocrats, and so on.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#127147: Jun 20th 2016 at 2:02:11 PM

[up][up][up]The voters picked Hillary over Sanders, buddy.

Also, Sanders lost a lot of respect recently.

edited 20th Jun '16 2:03:38 PM by flameboy21th

Non Indicative Username
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#127148: Jun 20th 2016 at 2:02:49 PM

[up][up][up][up]You say that as if Clinton was picked by like a round table of people instead of legitimately getting voted on by more people.

I'm honestly very confused by this "Sanders could win in a landslide" mentality. If he couldn't even win in the race to become the candidate what makes you so confident he could easily beat Trump or anyone else?

edited 20th Jun '16 2:05:05 PM by LSBK

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#127149: Jun 20th 2016 at 2:02:51 PM

[up][up][up][up]Clinton is just as left as Bernie, they share an almost identical voting record. And she's leading Trump by a lot.

Honestly after that California mess I'm glad Bernie lost.

Also that [up]. Clinton won fair and square, she won the most delegates and the popular vote too. By every measure the people have decided that they want her over Bernie.

edited 20th Jun '16 2:03:38 PM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
Galadriel Since: Feb, 2015
#127150: Jun 20th 2016 at 2:06:36 PM

Yes Democratic voters picked Hillary over Trump (Sanders voters were more likely to be Independents). When I say Democrats, I mean 'members of the Democratic Party', which is a pretty big group, not a few people in a back room.

I'm saying they made a bad choice in terms of both policy and electoral strategy. The general public seems to want literally anything except an establishment candidate this year, and Hillary is the epitome of one.

Sanders could win because 1) it's a given that Democratic voters would support him against Trump and 2) he's got a much stronger ability to appeal to voters who are just generally frustrated by the political and economic system - i.e., the kind of voters that lean towards Trump - than Hillary does. Trump's advantage is among lower-income white people, a group Bernie did well among during the primary. And minority voters who didn't favour Sanders during the primary would still back him against Trump. So Sanders has got a prospective electoral coalition of pretty mych everyone except rich white people.

What polls we have bear me out on this. Sanders has done far better than Hillary in head-to-head polls against Trump.

edited 20th Jun '16 2:14:44 PM by Galadriel


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