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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#126901: Jun 17th 2016 at 11:17:49 AM

Mark Cuban donated a million dollars to the Dallas Police in order to increase their presence in LGBT neighbourhoods after what happened in Orlando.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126902: Jun 17th 2016 at 12:05:34 PM

[I]t's a part of the system because the people in charge have agreed to set a "your political party must be this rich to even hope to compete for a seat at a local level" bar, and they've set it high.

There was no discrete, deliberate act of collusion that set the two-party system in stone; it grew organically over the lifetime of the Union.

If you want corruption and backroom dealings, it's worth noting that neither major party had more than pro-forma primaries until the mid to late 20th century, selecting their candidates with internal committees that had no accountability whatsoever. The current primary system is far more transparent than it's been at any other time in history.

The idea that minor, local parties would do a better job of representing voters is naive, since large, national groups offer economies of scale in politics just as they do in industry, and the natural evolution of these small groups is to merge along common interests. Standing against that tide requires an active effort by some controlling agency, which could itself be a target for corruption.

In any given election, the FPTP system guarantees that only two parties can functionally compete, so the idea that you could have Democrats versus Republicans in Pennsylvania's 10th district and Whigs vs. Tories in Pennsylvania's 11th district is just bizarre, especially as those parties would also be competing for gubernatorial, Senate, and Presidential seats, so they'd either have to form alliances or accept that only the strongest two could have any hope of winning. Thus, the strongest parties at the federal level would trickle down to and increase their influence at the state level, which would in turn absorb the district parties. Coalitions would turn into national parties, which is, to my understanding, exactly what happened in the early U.S.

edited 17th Jun '16 12:25:25 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#126903: Jun 17th 2016 at 12:54:56 PM

The UK, Canada, and Australia's weirder forms of federalism are what account for them bucking Duverger's law. Although it is strange that the US never had long-lasting regionalist parties (outside of the shortlived Dixiecrats)

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#126904: Jun 17th 2016 at 1:00:58 PM

[up]The US eschews regionalist parties because there's nothing to be gained from being the minority partner in a coalition. No party wants to be 15% of 50%-plus-one. They want to be the majority, and keep infighting out of the spotlight.

edited 17th Jun '16 1:01:34 PM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#126905: Jun 17th 2016 at 1:18:14 PM

Okay, so has anything important happened in this thread over the last view hours?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#126906: Jun 17th 2016 at 1:27:35 PM

The US has 100 parties, fifty Republican and fifty Democratic. One for each state, in fact. And the extreme degree of party discipline we've seen lately is highly unusual.

For example, the Alaska Republican Party was firmly against drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, back when I was a kid, that was a huge issue and the national Republicans were gung-ho about doing it. (Not, ironically, for environmentalist reasons - it was a states' rights issue, or "Alaska really doesn't like the amount of our land and mineral wealth that the feds claimed for themselves.")

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#126907: Jun 17th 2016 at 1:35:41 PM

[up][up][up]Another reason why third parties try to shoot for the top, even when it would be wiser to concentrate their lesser resources at state and local levels. Things could be shaken up, if only the people dedicated to these things would think a little bit more about the long game.

[up][up]People had a discussion, that's what happened. That kind of comment you made offers nothing to it.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#126908: Jun 17th 2016 at 1:54:00 PM

I was just asking; didn't want to bother reading through the 7-8 pages that sprung up while I was sleeping.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#126909: Jun 17th 2016 at 2:06:02 PM

the idea that you could have Democrats versus Republicans in Pennsylvania's 10th district and Whigs vs. Tories in Pennsylvania's 11th district is just bizarre,

Why? It works in other countries.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
flameboy21th The would-be novelist from California Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
The would-be novelist
#126910: Jun 17th 2016 at 2:08:59 PM

United States is not other countries, in case you haven't noticed.

edited 17th Jun '16 2:09:18 PM by flameboy21th

Non Indicative Username
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#126911: Jun 17th 2016 at 2:10:03 PM

Because? There must be a reason for the US being different in this regard.

edited 17th Jun '16 2:11:12 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126912: Jun 17th 2016 at 2:15:42 PM

I just described why. Those minor local parties get absorbed in the large national parties that must form in order to win the national elections.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#126913: Jun 17th 2016 at 2:17:23 PM

We just saw FPTP countries with a plurality of parties, though.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#126914: Jun 17th 2016 at 2:17:56 PM

Normally, the lower the level of politics, the more likely you'll get either independents or really weird minor parties hanging around, if only because the federal parties aren't really going to care about who's elected in a tiny town in the middle of nowhere, especially since state politics can totally override city and town politics. (Which is really hypocritical for people who constantly cry about "States Rights" and then turn around and squash municipal rights.)

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#126915: Jun 17th 2016 at 2:28:30 PM

[up]X3 I understand that they get absorbed, what I'm trying to understand is why they inherently do.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#126916: Jun 17th 2016 at 2:36:01 PM

[up][up]Or "libertarians" who rail agianst Federal power... in favour of States' Rights.... but not in favour of rights at a more local level.

Yeeeeaaaahhhhh....

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#126917: Jun 17th 2016 at 2:45:36 PM

Well, it's certainly not a requirement that they get absorbed, given all the little parties that appear to be operating in New York. Although they certainly tend to ban together and support particular candidates. (I think mostly Democrat but I'm working with a slightly fuzzy memory here.)

Although this tendency to ban together behind a candidate from one of the big two may be what Fighteer means by getting absorbed. They still exist as independent parties, but don't always or rarely run candidates of their own, instead going for one of the two major options.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#126918: Jun 17th 2016 at 2:47:37 PM

I wonder if per-state political culture also plays a role - if memory serves Vermont has a third party in its legislature.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#126919: Jun 17th 2016 at 2:55:04 PM

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#126920: Jun 17th 2016 at 2:59:48 PM

Why? Be-freaking-cause, that's why. Sometimes there is no reason. Live with it.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
ILoveDogs Since: May, 2010
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#126922: Jun 17th 2016 at 3:04:23 PM

Pweigle, the whole "learn to live with it" isn't exactly the best option in some cases. And this guy apparently feels this is one of those cases. (It is freaking expensive to live in New York.)

Of course, New York's parties all seem to be very specific to New York itself, and its way of allowing parties to bundle together may be unique to the city itself, but I think the Working Family Party possibly has wider appeal in the nation.

[up]C-span allowed one man doing a strip tease to be aired live. Let it not be said that Libertarians don't occasionally have a sense of humor.

edited 17th Jun '16 3:12:36 PM by AceofSpades

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#126923: Jun 17th 2016 at 3:11:19 PM

I wasn't referring to NY rent rates. That post snuck in while I was composing. Mine was more of a generalized retort, like a parent does to a 3-year-old's incessant queries.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
JackOLantern1337 Shameful Display from The Most Miserable Province in the Russian Empir Since: Aug, 2014 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Shameful Display
#126924: Jun 17th 2016 at 3:11:41 PM

[up][up] Well they made South Park so of course they do.tongue

edited 17th Jun '16 3:11:51 PM by JackOLantern1337

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#126925: Jun 17th 2016 at 3:15:58 PM

@Fighteer: To counterpoint you: The UK has FPTP. They also have four major parties and a host of minors, and while they do have two major major parties, the Liberal Democrats did make a coalition with the Conservatives in 2010, and a Labour government with SNP supply was the odds-on favorite in the last election (except that Conservatives managed to survive by cannibalizing their coalition).

So FPTP, combined with regional interests pulling in different directions, can still lead to multiple parties through multiple two-party contests. Two national big tents are not a guaranteed result (except specifically for Presidential elections, which may or may not have anything to do with downticket results).


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