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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Perian Since: Jun, 2016
#126676: Jun 16th 2016 at 12:44:53 PM

@smokeycut I'm talking about the party's ideals, not the party itself. I could care less about the Democratic Party.

[up][up][up][up] That's all about presentation. People care about what she's going to do. Many people feel that she isn't going to be able to do anything substantial with these large donors, so it's kind of an important point?

edited 16th Jun '16 12:45:13 PM by Perian

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126677: Jun 16th 2016 at 12:45:15 PM

[up][up][up] When all of your candidates are awful, it's a fundamental problem with the system that voting isn't going to fix. You have my sympathies, but stop projecting your country's problems onto ours. It's not helpful.

[up][up] Yes, if that candidate cannot, mathematically, win. There's significant evidence that Ralph Nader cost Al Gore the 2000 election, and look where that got us.

edited 16th Jun '16 12:47:21 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#126678: Jun 16th 2016 at 12:48:43 PM

Politics is more than this binary thinking that being against something makes one automatically in favor of the opposition
Politics are more than that. Elections — or at least FPTP elections — are not.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#126679: Jun 16th 2016 at 12:49:40 PM

@Perian-

I'm trying to find a good way of saying this, but that "large doners" accusation is a meaningless bogeyman, especially when there's no specificiation of which doners are meant and what issue one believes their input would affect.

It also doesn't take into account what I think is more important- that just those large doners are rich has nothing to do with their or Clinton's progressive policies in most if not necessary all issues.

I think that Sanders has somehow managed to convince people that his own policy preferences are those of the perfect progressive and that anyone else with different preferences is not a true progressive and I call bullshit.

edited 16th Jun '16 12:51:00 PM by Hodor2

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#126680: Jun 16th 2016 at 12:50:41 PM

It isn't much as projecting my problems into the US but forcing people to support candidates they don't like doesn't do any good either.

It in the end just creates more ressentiment, which ends up creating more divisions and kinda defeats the whole purpose of having the freedom to decide what to do with your vote.

edited 16th Jun '16 12:50:53 PM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#126681: Jun 16th 2016 at 12:50:53 PM

Yes, if that candidate cannot, mathematically, win. There's significant evidence that Ralph Nader cost Al Gore the 2000 election, and look where that got us.

I have to disagree then. Voting for a third party, wherever the reason, doesn't hurt or support either candidate if neither was going to get your vote in the first place. Nor does it drop the number of votes in the pool and give other votes more weight, which was one of your arguments.

I can see your point with the Nader example, but I still can't be against someone, at the very least, voting for who they want. Maybe that's naive, or more emotional than practical, but that's where I stand on it. The alternative, rightly or wrongly, stinks too much of the "my way or be a traitor" mentality that makes me dislike politics in a lot of cases.

edited 16th Jun '16 12:55:06 PM by sgamer82

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#126682: Jun 16th 2016 at 12:51:04 PM

Elections are always a choice between N candidates. Someone is always going to win a seat, no matter how many people stay home. Thus, the argument that "lesser of two evils" leads to bad government is uttely bogus, unless one's mistaken about who is the lesser evil.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#126683: Jun 16th 2016 at 12:51:59 PM

Man, Mc Cain has really dialed up his rhetoric to avoid being knocked out by the team party in the primary. And they still want his skin anyway.

Man should probably retire with some of his dignity intact.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Perian Since: Jun, 2016
#126684: Jun 16th 2016 at 12:53:48 PM

[up][up][up][up][up] I'm talking about donors that go directly against Clinton's positions, such as fossil fuel (I posted a number a few pages ago, it was about 7 million dollar) and Wall Street donors (probably even more). These are problematic, can we agree with that? I have no issues with, for instance, the Union of Nurses that is apparently backing Sanders.

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#126685: Jun 16th 2016 at 12:55:15 PM

[up][up][up][up]I am not saying to vote to a third party just because. I am saying that not voting because you don't like the options or voting for someone you think that represents you better than the other candidates shouldn't be a reason to be shamed into voting for someone else.

edited 16th Jun '16 12:55:31 PM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#126686: Jun 16th 2016 at 12:55:26 PM

[up][up][up][up] Beyond a certain point, the lesser of two evils is so bad that the "correct" choice is to overthrow the government and replace it with one which may or may not be an improvement. The US is nowhere near that point, but we're in the early stages of a major societal transformation, and the American system is extremely rigid.

edited 16th Jun '16 12:57:19 PM by CaptainCapsase

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#126687: Jun 16th 2016 at 12:56:19 PM

@Perian- How about all of the unions (i.e. AFLCIO and UAW) supporting Clinton and the fact that NARL, the Human Rights Campaign, and the Brady Campaign support her.

I guess I'd consider the fossil fuel one to be slightly problematic. I don't really find meaning in the Wall Street one because there's no real evidence of Clinton being anti-financial reform. Maybe not focused on "breaking the banks" in the way Sanders is, but she's certainly in favor of laws curtailing white collar crime.

And my other main point is that I bet one reason why she has these big downers supporting her, including people on Wall Street (besides her being a known entity) is because those individuals support her on her other policy preferences, such as gay rights and abortion rights.

Edit- Too rude of phrasing I think. My apologies.

edited 16th Jun '16 1:03:27 PM by Hodor2

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#126688: Jun 16th 2016 at 12:58:31 PM

@AngelusNox I'm not advocating vote third party just 'cause either, if that's directed at me (thread moves so fast it's getting hard to tell). In fact I'm agreeing with a lot of what you've said so far. I feel, better or worse, vote where you feel you should vote and don't let others force or shame you into doing otherwise. Especially not with "you're either with us or against us" logic.

Maybe in context of an election (or at least this election) I'm wrong to think so. But that doesn't change how I feel.

edited 16th Jun '16 1:02:55 PM by sgamer82

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#126689: Jun 16th 2016 at 1:03:43 PM

@ Capsase:

Beyond a certain point, the lesser of two evils is so bad that the "correct" choice is to overthrow the government and replace it with one which may or may not be an improvement. The US is nowhere near that point

But is Europe a lot closer to that point?

Keep Rolling On
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#126690: Jun 16th 2016 at 1:04:13 PM

If memory serves the Human Rights Campaign endorsement for Hillary has attracted some complaints of cronyism because she's actually (historically) been less supportive for LGBT rights than Sanders. Same for AFL-CIO in light of the free trade agreements and her only recent walkback on TPP/TTIP. Don't know enough to judge the validity of such complaints.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#126691: Jun 16th 2016 at 1:04:22 PM

X-posting from military thread:

Senate Votes to Require Women to Register for the Draft After January 1, 2018

edited 16th Jun '16 1:04:38 PM by TerminusEst

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
Perian Since: Jun, 2016
#126692: Jun 16th 2016 at 1:05:01 PM

[up][up][up][up][up] These are no problem. However, that doesn't take the ones that I was talking about away.

Look, it's not about the candidate to me. As I said, I would prefer a situation in which I could happily support Clinton. But I care about things like the environment, and I think these problems account for hard measures, which is why these fossil fuel donors worry me.

About Wall Street: Clinton says that she wants to address income inequality, and I have doubts when a candidate who takes so much money from Wall Street and big banks says that.

EDIT: I don't think people on Wall Street would donate money in such large amounts if the only reason is that they're concerned about gay rights.

edited 16th Jun '16 1:06:19 PM by Perian

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126693: Jun 16th 2016 at 1:05:25 PM

These are problematic, can we agree with that?
Only if they influence Clinton's positions, which nobody has yet provided any actual evidence of. Big money donors traditionally give to lots of candidates, in both parties, as a way of hedging their bets.

I can see your point with the Nader example, but I still can't be against someone, at the very least, voting for who they want. Maybe that's naive, or more emotional than practical, but that's where I stand on it. The alternative, rightly or wrongly, stinks too much of the "my way or be a traitor" mentality that makes me dislike politics in a lot of cases.
Philosophically, I agree. Practically, I don't, because while it may be a dirty business, it's the only business in town.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#126694: Jun 16th 2016 at 1:09:07 PM

[up][up]

I don't think there's anything Clinton can do even if she wanted to to allay your "suspicions".

And part of why I bring up those other things is not because I'm arguing that those are the main reason for her big donor (can't seem to spell that right) support, but because it illustrates that she's a Progressive Democrat.

And that basically because of your "suspicions" you are willing to allow for the election of Trump, who is awful on all of those issues.

edited 16th Jun '16 1:10:41 PM by Hodor2

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#126695: Jun 16th 2016 at 1:11:53 PM

[up][up] Good to know. I'll stick to philosophical, though. To do otherwise would feel to me like I'm Jumping Off the Slippery Slope too much for my liking. (Not intending to say anyone is, but it's a mentality that I'd prefer to avoid in myself, even if I'm wrong for doing s so).

edited 16th Jun '16 1:12:27 PM by sgamer82

GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#126696: Jun 16th 2016 at 1:12:48 PM

I think the issue with Clinton and Trump is that they both perfectly represent the worst aspects of both political parties respectfully. Clinton is the political insider who the DNC Party Bosses had pretty much chosen to be their nominee for President before even offering her to voters. Donald Trump is a racist, sexist git who cares more about guns than brown people.

edited 16th Jun '16 1:13:35 PM by GameGuruGG

Wizard Needs Food Badly
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126697: Jun 16th 2016 at 1:14:42 PM

[up] But if the DNC Party Bosses represent positions that align, in the majority, with the views of progressive Americans, then their "corruption" is an interesting datum that in no way affects the suitability of their candidate to be President.

Heck, you could say that Donald Trump represents the interests of the Republican Party more than the party's insiders do. This has been the case for a while, but it was only in this election cycle that it came out with enough force to unseat the establishment.

The converse, however, is not true on the Democrats' side. Sanders lost the nomination, rather convincingly, and it was fair and square by the popular vote. If he had won, then we might be having a different conversation, but he didn't, and that's that.

edited 16th Jun '16 1:16:38 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#126698: Jun 16th 2016 at 1:16:08 PM

"Don't vote for X is the same as voting for Y" isn't my position, to clarify.

"Not voting for X is basically making it easier for Y to win" is my argument. This isn't so much as a "if you're not with us, you're against us", it's a "it's better to vote in a way that prevents the problem from occurring than not".

Shadow?
Perian Since: Jun, 2016
#126699: Jun 16th 2016 at 1:25:39 PM

And that basically because of your "suspicions" you are willing to allow for the election of Trump, who is awful on all of those issues.
Can we stop saying things like that? I'm not even an American, so I don't have any say in the matter anyway. I'm simply explaining why so many people think that she's a terrible choice. To address your other points: of course she has some progressive positions on things like abortion (almost all Democrats do anyway). But I'd prefer a Democrat in the White House who has these progressive positions and can get things done on other important issues such as income inequality and climate change.

Only if they influence Clinton's positions, which nobody has yet provided any actual evidence of. Big money donors traditionally give to lots of candidates, in both parties, as a way of hedging their bets.
That's something that the Democrats have been claiming fairly recently, when they started accepting these big money donors. If you want a good article about that, see this: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/14/money-hillary-clinton-banks-oil-links-presidential-campaign. The problem is that politicians are dependent on these large donors to get elected.

edited 16th Jun '16 2:19:48 PM by Perian

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#126700: Jun 16th 2016 at 1:28:11 PM

[up]That Sanders would be able to "get things done" seems to be the sticking point for a lot of people. And you still haven't given any reason beyond "Some rich people donated to her" to think she doesn't care about those things. If you can't back up what you say I don't know what you hope to accomplish.

edited 16th Jun '16 1:29:04 PM by LSBK


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