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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126501: Jun 15th 2016 at 3:54:48 PM

They're in a fantasy land at this point. Their guy, who is the only honest guy in all of politics, got shut out of the system by Clinton's cabal of money-fueled insider criminals, and the Revolution will come sooner or later and put 'em all up against a wall.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#126502: Jun 15th 2016 at 4:00:17 PM

@Eschaton the entry barrier for that list is very low, after the Boston Marathon bombing people got into that list for buying pressure cookers online, and accessing any sort of material related to terrorist groups regardless of intent can put you there.

Watching this probably put me in a couple of those watch lists.

Inter arma enim silent leges
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#126503: Jun 15th 2016 at 4:00:40 PM

Bernie's really hardcore supporters, like all fanatics, divorce themselves from reality when it doesn't agree with them.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#126504: Jun 15th 2016 at 4:02:06 PM

And since a lot of them are quite net-savvy, they tend to trumpet their opinions all over the place.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#126505: Jun 15th 2016 at 4:03:13 PM

Concealed v Open Carry is mostly a boondoggle, aside from the light licensing standards for both. The core is strong enforcement of the existing regimen, and possibly more penalties for sellers (one end-run around the gun-show "loophole" is if a purely private seller could be held liable for any criminal damages done by the person who bought their gun, if the private seller did not conduct due diligence, raising the cost of selling legit guns).

On a more scifi level, i'd see smartguns becoming the industry standard and then put a ban on everything else, which wouldn't infringe on the reasonable right so long as they were about the same price as "dumb" weapons.

Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#126506: Jun 15th 2016 at 4:03:23 PM

@Angelus: That's what I've heard, which is why I'm not really on board with the effort.

But I'm even less on board if someone like Trump is trying to lead it.

edited 15th Jun '16 4:06:55 PM by Eschaton

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#126507: Jun 15th 2016 at 4:06:00 PM

The problem with watchlists and no-fly lists is that they're administrative tools, not legal decisions. Taking away someone's legal rights — like the right to purchase a firearm — without due process is a very big no-no. And there have been enough stories about people getting put on those lists because of a clerical error or because they have the same name as someone else on the list that using them for damn-near anything is a nonstarter for me until those issues are fixed.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126508: Jun 15th 2016 at 4:08:44 PM

Yeah, I have to agree with you there. Those lists are due process nightmares. It's weird that a party that prides itself on its adherence to civil rights principles would be advocating for their use.

edited 15th Jun '16 4:13:57 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#126509: Jun 15th 2016 at 4:20:41 PM

I still think there's a way to square the circle about watch lists. You can't just send someone a letter saying "hey, you're being summoned for a hearing about whether to put you on the no-fly list," it's just operational, you can't let dangerous people know that you know.

People on the list should have clear, speedy recourse for getting off of it (like a hearing within 90 days of the first time they discover they're on a list), but i don't think the lists are the worst idea.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#126510: Jun 15th 2016 at 4:20:53 PM

And considering that the people have ended up on those lists include decorated war vets, toddlers, people who have been dead for decades, and journalists who have gone after the government for these false positives...

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126511: Jun 15th 2016 at 4:22:08 PM

Nah, the watch lists need to be dropped — well, you can't stop the FBI from compiling lists of people it doesn't like, but you can bar extrajudicial information from affecting one's civil rights. This stance is not incompatible with security since I don't support anyone carrying guns in public or buying a gun without licensing.

As far as the "no-fly list" goes, it's not hard to discover that you're on it... just try to fly somewhere. What's problematic is getting off it.

edited 15th Jun '16 4:24:26 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#126512: Jun 15th 2016 at 4:50:28 PM

The concept of no-fly/high risk lists is fine. The execution is where things so wrong.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#126513: Jun 15th 2016 at 4:56:09 PM

Yeah I mean it's not that complicated, just make it so that the FBI I can't just add you to a list because it doesn't like you, it has to make a case to a judge, likewise it has to be able to specify who you are and why you should be on the list.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
wehrmacht belongs to the hurricane from the garden of everything Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
belongs to the hurricane
#126515: Jun 15th 2016 at 6:39:10 PM

Given that this is from a Utah politician this is actually really heartwarming.

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#126516: Jun 15th 2016 at 7:00:20 PM

@Fighteer: You know, one argument I have in favor of the right to self-defense, and to bear arms in pursuit of that, is that the Supreme Court has ruled that the police have no duty to protect individual citizens from harm.

Given that, I think that utilitarian arguments lose a lot of value (irony). If you don't have a right to be protected by the police, then you have a right to protect yourself and carry the necessary tools to do so.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126517: Jun 15th 2016 at 7:03:39 PM

Got a citation on that Supreme Court thing? It seems too fantastical to be true.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#126518: Jun 15th 2016 at 7:06:00 PM

It does rather go against the whole point of police

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#126519: Jun 15th 2016 at 7:09:33 PM

Police do not have a constitutional duty to protect anyone.

Source: NY Times. The decision was written by Scalia (no surprise) and came after a woman's children were kidnapped and murdered by her ex-husband. Essentially, you have no legal recourse if the cops fail to protect you or your family, even if they ignored an arrest order.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126520: Jun 15th 2016 at 7:12:30 PM

Oh. Constitutionally, sure. I don't see how you'd read a duty to protect into that document, if you're taking the matter literally. But it is their job description. The point, while interesting, is not relevant to the matter we're discussing.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#126521: Jun 15th 2016 at 7:17:46 PM

Yes it is, I think. You cannot require the police to protect your life. You cannot sue them for failing to do so. If you cannot force the police to "do their job," as you put it, then it may as well not be their job. (An obligation without an enforcement mechanism is meaningless.)

So what I'm getting at is, if you do not have a right to be protected from harm by society, then barring a Hobbes Was Right argument ("you have no rights against the government, yet you have a duty to obey it"), you have a right to self-defense. You can only argue that the right to defend yourself is given up (as part of living in a civilization) if you can count on society (the police) doing it for you.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126522: Jun 15th 2016 at 7:24:20 PM

That sounds dangerously like a "Wild West" justification: we live in a free-for-all, everything goes society despite having government and civil order and law enforcement, so it's every man's duty to be prepared to use lethal force at the drop of a hat.

The control on the behavior of police is the society that they work on behalf of. When that's lost, you get abuses, but the solution is not to turn into a private vigilante. That only makes the situation worse, because now when someone tries to step in to restore order, they can't tell if the people with guns are good guys or bad guys.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#126523: Jun 15th 2016 at 7:40:58 PM

It's worth noting that just because the Supreme Court found that there's no constitutional requirement, that doesn't mean that there's no legal requirement. It's just not based in the constitution itself. Pass a law saying that they have to help, and they're legally required to help.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#126524: Jun 15th 2016 at 8:59:17 PM

Not mandated by the constitution =/= unconstitutional.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Demonic_Braeburn Yankee Doodle Dandy from Defective California Since: Jan, 2016
Yankee Doodle Dandy
#126525: Jun 15th 2016 at 9:10:26 PM

Hillary Clinton backs requiring women to register for draft.

Any group who acts like morons ironically will eventually find itself swamped by morons who think themselves to be in good company.

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