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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

NickTheSwing Since: Aug, 2009
#126476: Jun 15th 2016 at 2:16:52 PM

People who support Open Carry or like to conceal these weird and extreme weapons are usually the same type of people who believe the Second Amendment was made to defend them against;

  • Lizard people from Planet Draco.
  • The New World Order minions of the Anti-Christ.
  • Vatican minions, sometimes an overlap exists with the immediate prior group.
  • Big Gubmint
  • Those scary, scary minorities whose rights somehow threaten theirs.
  • anyone to the left of themselves on any given issue.

Whenever I read an account of these sorts of people, I immediately hear of this talk of "defending yourself against the government", which is basically advanced paranoia and a product of a diseased mind. I always find myself wondering if they're going to be the next mass shooter.

And always they're basically white people afraid that somehow their "right" to call a black man a very crude name being taken away is "bad". Just as well people who're upset they don't have the "right to bully".

I don't think much of them.

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#126477: Jun 15th 2016 at 2:21:52 PM

I think the best approach would be some sort of licensing and training system, like with cars, that is accessible to everyone. Tax funded if necessary to stay within the bounds of the second amendment. Better yet, make it a photo-id, thus totally short-circuiting Republican attempts at photo-id laws.

[up] I can guarantee that if the government at all cares about that kind of person, it's because they behave in an incredibly suspicious manner. And if the government decides to go all totalitarian on everyone, a gun isn't going to do much good against a tank.

edited 15th Jun '16 2:23:47 PM by Zendervai

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#126478: Jun 15th 2016 at 2:25:11 PM

There's a guy in the Gun Thread right now saying he needs a 30 round magazine to protect himself from the 1992 LA riots. I'm not saying all gun rights guys are crazy, but too often the loudest voices make arguments like that which makes taking the sane guys seriously depressingly difficult.

US gun culture is something I must say I find endlessly if worryingly fascinating. We're right next door to you. We import almost all your cultural norms. Yet we emphatically don't share that part of your culture. I live in a rural, conservative county. I have friends who are big time hunters and gun collectors. Even they don't think they need thirty or fifty round magazines or armour-piercing ammunition or what have you.

edited 15th Jun '16 2:26:55 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126479: Jun 15th 2016 at 2:27:15 PM

[up]Because the best response to a riot is to start mowing people down indiscriminately? Yeah, that'll help. /sigh

edited 15th Jun '16 2:27:34 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#126480: Jun 15th 2016 at 2:33:29 PM

He meant it in a home defense way.

It could actually work...? In a "I can't kill you all, but who wants to die first" way?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126481: Jun 15th 2016 at 2:35:37 PM

Y'know, at that point I'd just let the rioters take what they want. If I start shooting, the result would be some dead or wounded rioters and a very dead me. This idea of the lone cowboy hero making a courageous stand against the onrushing hordes is very much fiction.

edited 15th Jun '16 2:38:29 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#126482: Jun 15th 2016 at 2:38:00 PM

Trump's net disapproval rating is up to 70%.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/15/politics/washington-post-abc-news-poll-unfavorable-ratings/index.html

Yeah, analysts and pollsters seem to be thinking that he fucked up Orlando badly.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#126483: Jun 15th 2016 at 2:38:16 PM

[up][up]I assume at that point you're thinking that what the rioters want is your life, more than any of your posessions.

Or your body. Or the life or body of someone in your family.

[up]Good. Vote Loki.

edited 15th Jun '16 2:42:42 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126484: Jun 15th 2016 at 2:40:58 PM

[up] Then you might as well accept that you're going to die. I mean, sure, you've got nothing to lose at that point, but the situation is so far gone anyway that it hardly matters.

A couple of other things about our hypothetical scenario:

  • The weapon is being used for home defense, which is a long-established right independent of anyone's Second Amendment rights. My argument this afternoon has been against public carry, not against home defense. note 
  • Evidence shows that a shotgun is an even greater psychological deterrent than a rifle, so you're using the wrong tool for the job.
  • The instant a bullet leaves the chamber of your weapon, you are guaranteeing that if you weren't going to be killed before, you are now.

edited 15th Jun '16 2:42:51 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#126485: Jun 15th 2016 at 2:42:04 PM

Apparently a new poll by Wasgington Post-ABC News puts Trump's disapproval rating at 70%, a 10 percentage point jump from their last poll.

The poll was mostly conducted before the shootings in Orlando, so it's still too early to tell how those events are going to affect the numbers. And of course while Washington Post-ABC News seems to be reliable in their polling, it's still just one poll. But it does show that Trump is losing ground even among the demographics that make up the core of his base instead of the demographics that already generally oppose him opposing him even more).

But if it's a sign of where things are going, there is a scenario where Hillary beats Trump 2-1 in the popular vote in November.

[nja] Beat me too it @Rationalinsanity!

edited 15th Jun '16 2:48:26 PM by Falrinn

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126486: Jun 15th 2016 at 2:44:16 PM

[up] This is shaping up to be a disastrous election for Republicans. Let's hope it turns out that way.

edited 15th Jun '16 2:44:27 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#126487: Jun 15th 2016 at 2:48:16 PM

[up][up]I still think that kind of a blowout an unlikely scenario, since a lot of people are going to remember that she's still Hillary Clinton by November.

On the other hand, I doubt Donald Trump is going to let people forget that he's Donald Trump.

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#126488: Jun 15th 2016 at 2:58:52 PM

[up] To clarify, the scenario I was imagining could be described as "the most begrudging landslide in a contested election in not just American history, but quite possibly world history".

ThePest179 Since: Jul, 2015
#126489: Jun 15th 2016 at 2:59:06 PM

[up][up][up] Now just pray that Republicans do poorly in Congress and on a state level as poorly as they might do at the Presidency, or else not much will change.

edited 15th Jun '16 2:59:34 PM by ThePest179

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#126490: Jun 15th 2016 at 3:12:02 PM

If Trump reacts the way he does to every crisis, big or small, the way he did to Orlando moderates and swing voters will be done with him and some Republicans will just stay home. Its a documented trend that Americans demand that their candidates behave "presidential" in the face of adversity. I don't think Trump can get away with breaking that rule.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#126491: Jun 15th 2016 at 3:17:29 PM

Especially when they start facing each other. Because Trump sucks at debating. I'm sort of expecting him to get riled up by a series of questions that he can't answer and then just screaming insults at Clinton.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#126492: Jun 15th 2016 at 3:19:41 PM

It turns out that Americans don't appreciate people egotistically gloating in the wake of a tragic massacre.

You'd think Trump would know that, seeing as one of his favorite talking points is the myth of Muslims celebrating as the Twin Towers fell.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#126493: Jun 15th 2016 at 3:28:00 PM

I have every reason to be afraid of a plainclothes stranger with a gun, concealed or otherwise. Because whether I am armed or not, if he decides I need to be dead, I will probably die, and there is literally nothing I can do about it.
That's equally true if he has a knife. Or if you're standing in a place his car can reach. Or if he's just a bigger dude than you and can beat you to death with his bare hands.

The reason people aren't murdered every time they leave their house isn't because other people don't have the means to kill them, it's because the vast, vast majority of people aren't murderers.

You carry a gun in preparation for a robbery but not a bulletproof vest and other safety equipment?
Yes. The idea is that if someone pulls a knife on you, or tries to strong arm you, or something like that, you can pull a gun and make them back off — or, if all else fails, shoot them. If they pull a gun on you, you give them the fucking money even if you also have a gun. Carrying a concealed weapon is a way to turn the tables on someone who assumes you're unarmed — advertising the fact that you're expecting to be robbed is a double-edged sword, because it will scare some people away from even trying, but other people will just shoot you first and rummage through your corpse's pockets.

I find that most people who open carry like that are making a big, public point of exercising their Second Amendment rights, which makes them (a) assholes, and (b) part of the fundamental problem with gun culture in the U.S.
I find that most people who make wide, sweeping points about others without making an attempt to differentiate between those acting maliciously and those who actually have a point are usually just about as unreasonable as they claim the people they're generalizing are. YMMV.

I think the best approach would be some sort of licensing and training system, like with cars, that is accessible to everyone. Tax funded if necessary to stay within the bounds of the second amendment. Better yet, make it a photo-id, thus totally short-circuiting Republican attempts at photo-id laws.
I would totally support that. Owning a gun should require a license, registration, and insurance, just like driving a car. License, "this person is qualified to own and use a gun". Registration, "this gun belongs to this person and they are legally responsible for it". Insurance, "in case something bad happens related to this gun, they will bear the financial costs of it".

There's a guy in the Gun Thread right now saying he needs a 30 round magazine to protect himself from the 1992 LA riots. I'm not saying all gun rights guys are crazy, but too often the loudest voices make arguments like that which makes taking the sane guys seriously depressingly difficult.
I'm ambivalent on the magazine size thing. It's a half-ass measure at best, no matter what side of it you come down on. Being able to fire five, or seven, or ten shots instead of 30 before having to reload is probably not going to make a huge difference in any case. On the one hand, you could use that to argue "why not restrict it, just to be on the safe side?" On the other, the same logic can lead you "why bother to restrict it if it's not going to make a difference?" I can't really get up in arms about it either way.

For the record, magazine size is really only important in combat situations where you're more often than not shooting in order to interfere with the other guy's shooting (ie, making him keep his head down) rather than actually trying to hit someone with each shot. It's also a lot more important when you're firing in full auto or burst mode, which uses ammo a lot more quickly. Neither applies to a civilian.

That said, both sides of the debate have issues with the least reasonable voices being the loudest ones.

TLDR — the ultimate disconnect we have here is that Fighteer is arguing from a position that guns are dangerous so you shouldn't be allowed to have them until you prove to his satisfaction that you're not going to do bad things with them. My position is that guns are like any number of other things in that they're dangerous in the wrong hands, but most people are perfectly safe with them, so we should do some basic due diligence to make sure that you're not one of those "wrong hands", but then you should be able to have your guns without being treated like a potential murderer.

edited 15th Jun '16 3:31:09 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126494: Jun 15th 2016 at 3:30:56 PM

[up] Your summary is basically correct. I do not believe that there is any inherent justification for having a weapon; you must demonstrate both proficiency and lack of ill intent before you may own one, and you may not carry one in public under any circumstances, open or concealed, unless you are a security or law enforcement professional who is acting in an official capacity.

edited 15th Jun '16 3:32:15 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#126495: Jun 15th 2016 at 3:33:58 PM

[up][up][up] There's also the fact he implied that President Obama may of been connected to the Orlando shooting. That is a thing that happened.

edited 15th Jun '16 3:34:07 PM by Falrinn

Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#126497: Jun 15th 2016 at 3:47:56 PM

Supporting the banning of gun sales to people on the terrorist watch-list does seem sensible.

Yet for some reason I don't trust him.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#126498: Jun 15th 2016 at 3:48:23 PM

Trump has a habit to go from straight-up madness to the odd sound comment to straight up madness like a yo-yo.

Semi-sound comment seeing as terror watchlists have floppy and sloppily handled inclusion criteria on par with sex offender registries.

edited 15th Jun '16 3:49:12 PM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#126499: Jun 15th 2016 at 3:50:57 PM

Argh, I'm getting so tired of dealing with Bernie Or Bust people on other sites. Why are they so willing to hand Trump the presidency? And furthermore, why do some of them genuinely think Bernie will walk out of the convention with the candidacy?

DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#126500: Jun 15th 2016 at 3:52:20 PM

They probably think Hillary is going to be indicted.


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