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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#126426: Jun 15th 2016 at 11:33:28 AM

Actually, Full-auto weapons are de facto banned in the US.

Leviticus 19:34
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#126427: Jun 15th 2016 at 11:39:18 AM

Guys, he was shooting up a nightclub at 2:00 AM on a Sunday morning, not walking through the middle of the street in broad daylight. We're talking like 90 seconds to get a gun out of his car and walk to the entrance. Concealability is not an issue here.

And as [up] said, it wasn't an assault rifle. Assault rifles are automatic weapons by definition. This was semi-auto.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126429: Jun 15th 2016 at 12:18:42 PM

[up][up] You know, that Insistent Terminology gambit about what an "assault rifle" is is getting very old. Stop deflecting the issue.

Should we change it to "semi-automatic rifle that kills a lot of people very fast and has no practical defensive use"? That makes these conversations unnecessarily cumbersome.

edited 15th Jun '16 12:36:05 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#126430: Jun 15th 2016 at 12:21:45 PM

Florida has a general ban on open-carry.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#126431: Jun 15th 2016 at 12:22:08 PM

I don't see how concealment isn't an issue here, since the guy was probably hiding the thing up until he started attacking. That he chose a time when few people were likely to be around to notice is party of concealment.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#126432: Jun 15th 2016 at 12:22:48 PM

I was under the impression that "assault rifle" didn't really have an official definition or criteria.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#126433: Jun 15th 2016 at 12:23:38 PM

You know, that always struck me as a bit wierd. I would always have thought that the logical thing is to force all gun-carriers to open-carry, and anyone caught carrying concealed weapons would be in for nasty legal penalties. Likewise anyone openly carrying in a way that violates gun safety.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126434: Jun 15th 2016 at 12:37:47 PM

The rhetoric goes: "But a concealed weapon lets me get the drop on a bad guy." This is the mentality of a person who envisions himself to be a virtuous avenger of American values, ready to whip out his Glock and blow away anyone who dares threaten his precious society.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#126435: Jun 15th 2016 at 12:39:44 PM

Which is usually just some black teenager who's visiting his girlfriend or got lost.

Or is just existing.

Oh really when?
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#126436: Jun 15th 2016 at 12:40:15 PM

You know, that Insistent Terminology gambit about what an "assault rifle" is is getting very old. Stop deflecting the issue.

Should we change it to "semi-automatic rifle that kills a lot of people very fast and has no practical defensive use"? That's a bit awkward, and, for the purposes of this conversation, irrelevant.

It's not deflecting the issue, it was an aside at the end of my post after I'd already made my other points. Which, perhaps ironically, you've ignored in favor of focusing on the aside about terminology.

But proper terminology is important. There's an enormous amount of people who do things like confuse "assault weapon" and "automatic weapon" and as a result think that machine guns are legal in the US since the Assault Weapon Ban expired (which isn't true; machine guns have been essentially banned in the US since the National Firearms Act passed in 1934). If you want to have a proper discussion about the issue, then everyone needs to actually know what things mean when they're said, because otherwise meaningful conversation is impossible.

I was under the impression that "assault rifle" didn't really have an official definition or criteria.
That's assault weapon, as in the Assault Weapon Ban, which is a meaningless buzzword. An assault rifle is a rifle (not a handgun or a shotgun) that is select-fire (can fire in semi-auto or full auto and/or burst fire modes) rifle that fires intermediate-sized cartridges (larger than pistol rounds, but smaller than machine gun rounds). If it's not all of those things, it's not an assault rifle.

Which is usually just some black teenager who's visiting his girlfriend or got lost.

Or is just existing.

For the love of god can you stop making pointless inflammatory comments like this? The vast, vast majority of gun owners — and concealed carry permit holders — are perfectly law abiding citizens who don't want to kill anyone any more than anyone else does. Being a gun owner does not mean you get a murderboner at the thought of "defending yourself" against the first brown person you see on the street, and comments like this add nothing to the conversation.

edited 15th Jun '16 12:46:20 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#126437: Jun 15th 2016 at 12:42:48 PM

Detachable magazines are also part of the definition.

But as much as I hate the whole semantics/term bullshit it is somewhat important to the discussion given the history of previous gun control attempts.

[up]Given where I live? Yeah, I'd say is very relevant to the conversation. It's one thing to be a gun owner and other to have your conceal carry permit.

edited 15th Jun '16 12:50:22 PM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126438: Jun 15th 2016 at 12:52:12 PM

[up][up] As long as the law-abiding citizens and the folks who are looking for an excuse to gun down brown people are indistinguishable from one another (up until the rounds start flying), I'm afraid that the point you're making is irrelevant.

An overwhelming ratio of the population supports more aggressive gun control laws, so why are Republicans in Congress (and even some Democrats) still stonewalling measures to adopt them?

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#126439: Jun 15th 2016 at 12:53:00 PM

[up][up]Thats more testament to where you live then than conceal carry. I know several people who conceal carry, and they are perfectly normal people.

[up]Because there is a not insignificant portion of the population that jumps through all the existing hoops set in order to own a gun who don't want to be punished with more paperwork when they did nothing wrong. They don't want to pay for the actions of a madman. It's the same as punishing all Muslims for the acts of terrorists.

edited 15th Jun '16 12:55:13 PM by FFShinra

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#126440: Jun 15th 2016 at 12:55:03 PM

Having a conceaed carry permit at some level says that you wanna play cowboy. If you wanted to carry your weapon for self defense or deterrence why not open carry?

edited 15th Jun '16 12:55:32 PM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#126441: Jun 15th 2016 at 12:58:20 PM

Open/Conceal, it doesn't matter to the likes of the madmen who commit these crimes. We've seen both types.

More generally, there is an assumption of malice if you have a weapon out in the open and aren't a uniform LEO or in a rural community. Getting penalized societally simply for having the weapon without intention of using it is a real concern. They ain't all cowboy wannabes.

edited 15th Jun '16 12:59:25 PM by FFShinra

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#126442: Jun 15th 2016 at 1:06:14 PM

[up]I find that assumption of malice problematic and unfair.

Upon seeing the Earth vessels, the Minbari cruisers opened their gunports as a sign of respect and strength - even though Humans would have no knowledge of such a tradition. Captain Jankowski misinterpreted the gesture as a sign of hostility,

As long as the law-abiding citizens and the folks who are looking for an excuse to gun down brown people are indistinguishable from one another (up until the rounds start flying), I'm afraid that the point you're making is irrelevant.

Couldn't the same be said of any group, including "brown people"?

edited 15th Jun '16 1:11:31 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126443: Jun 15th 2016 at 1:06:28 PM

[up][up] There should be such an assumption. We want to shame gun owners into leaving their pieces at home. There is no call for open or concealed carry on U.S. streets unless you fear imminent daily attack, and that indicates a much more serious problem that a bunch of cowboy rednecks can't solve.

edited 15th Jun '16 1:07:07 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#126444: Jun 15th 2016 at 1:08:51 PM

I've said it before but, Le Garcon, you really should stop acting as if everywhere is as shitty as where you live apparently is.

On the terminology debate, that's one of the few areas I think I tend to side more with the "gun activists" or whatever you want to call them. Like, if everyone is using the same, consistent, proper terminology it makes things a lot less confusing. The fact that some people show outright hostility to just calling something what it is has always baffled, regardless of any other positions of theirs I might agree with.

edited 15th Jun '16 1:14:29 PM by LSBK

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#126445: Jun 15th 2016 at 1:10:09 PM

Because there is a not insignificant portion of the population that jumps through all the existing hoops set in order to own a gun who don't want to be punished with more paperwork when they did nothing wrong.

What hoop? Sorry but what hoops are people meant to have jumped though to be a law abiding gun owner? I'm not talking about getting a concealed papery permit, I'm taking about just owning a gun.

The are no hoops, not really, having someone else run a background check on you isn't a hoop for you to jump though, somebody else does all the work. Hell getting your made Jerry to sell you a gun without a background check certainly isn't a hoop.

The gun rights lot act as if they're already subject to regulation and control when they are not, not st a federal level, and if they live in a state where they do have to jump though hoops then why are they worried? All that's being discussed is maybe making it so that folks in other areas have to jump though the same hoops as them, no hoop increase.

Still when it comes to terminology I have to say we should use the correct terms, deliberatly using the wrong terms for the things we're talking about makes us look like uniformed jackasses.

edited 15th Jun '16 1:14:13 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#126446: Jun 15th 2016 at 1:11:39 PM

Because there is a not insignificant portion of the population that jumps through all the existing hoops set in order to own a gun who don't want to be punished with more paperwork when they did nothing wrong. They don't want to pay for the actions of a madman. It's the same as punishing all Muslims for the acts of terrorists.

Perhaps what we need is to re-frame the action: they are not "paying for the actions of a madman (or a thousand)", they are "making a collective sacrifice in order to help protect the community from a thousand madmen". In other words, ask yourself, if stricter gun control is enacted, and this requires from you a greater effort to get and keep your guns, isn't that effort worth it for the sake of saving thousands of innocent lives every year?

Plus, how many hoops are those, really? This Al Quaeda spokesman seems to think little of them...

What are they waiting for, indeed?

edited 15th Jun '16 1:14:05 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#126447: Jun 15th 2016 at 1:12:46 PM

[up][up][up]I live where all the guns come from. Shit tons of weapons both illegal and not are moved through Wilmington all the time. And heroin.

This where most of the gun owners live, where most of the black market acquires their stock, and where the most abuse of the second amendment happens.

So this time I'd say my area is pretty relevant to the situation.

edited 15th Jun '16 1:12:57 PM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126448: Jun 15th 2016 at 1:24:39 PM

I'll say it again: given violent crime statistics and the statistics on gun safety, the main reason why anyone, "law-abiding citizen" or "gun-crazy redneck" should be concerned about carrying their weapon in public is to wave their gun boner around in an attempt to intimidate people.

The only exceptions are in very specific and generally isolated parts of the country, and if you live there, the solution isn't "more gun".

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#126449: Jun 15th 2016 at 1:33:22 PM

As long as the law-abiding citizens and the folks who are looking for an excuse to gun down brown people are indistinguishable from one another (up until the rounds start flying), I'm afraid that the point you're making is irrelevant.
Not it's not. You can't just say "some of you are assholes, so I'm going to treat all of you like assholes until you prove to my satisfaction that you're not an asshole". All that does is piss off the non-assholes and turn them against you — not without cause, because you're attacking them even though they haven't done anything wrong.

An overwhelming ratio of the population supports more aggressive gun control laws, so why are Republicans in Congress (and even some Democrats) still stonewalling measures to adopt them?
Because they're assholes. I'm all for gun control. But I'm all for effective, reasonable gun control. Things like the Assault Weapons Ban are worse than pointless because they accomplish nothing but sap political will to enact a real solution. Gun control reform is absolutely needed, but we've got to do it right or else we're just — no pun intended — shooting ourselves in the foot.

Having a conceaed carry permit at some level says that you wanna play cowboy. If you wanted to carry your weapon for self defense or deterrence why not open carry?
Two reasons. 1) Open carry is illegal in a lot of places, so concealed carry is your only option if you want to carry at all. 2) Not everyone wants to make a spectacle of themselves by walking around with a pistol on their hip. There's no reason not to let them concealed carry as long as they demonstrate that they're able to do so legally and safely by passing a concealed carry course.

There is no call for open or concealed carry on U.S. streets unless you fear imminent daily attack, and that indicates a much more serious problem that a bunch of cowboy rednecks can't solve.
Making sweeping generalized statements like that is asinine. My brother used to handle large amounts of cash on a regular basis for a small business. He wanted to be able to carry a concealed weapon while doing so, just in case. He was living in Boston at the time and couldn't get a permit, because Boston's rules on that sort of thing are extremely strict, so he had to carry tens of thousands of dollars to the bank on a regular basis. The only alternative would have been hiring an armored car service, which would have been both expensive and inconvenient.

tldr, there are legitimate reasons to want to be armed — and people with concealed carry permits are generally not the people responsible for most gun crime, the occasional case like George Zimmerman aside.

I'll say it again: given violent crime statistics and the statistics on gun safety, the main reason why anyone, "law-abiding citizen" or "gun-crazy redneck" should be concerned about carrying their weapon in public is to wave their gun boner around in an attempt to intimidate people.
That's complete bullshit. Concealed carry is for concealed carry. Taking your gun out and waving it around is illegal in many jurisdictions — either there's a specific law against it (usually something like "brandishing a weapon") or else it falls under laws against making threats.

People who want to carry guns in public just to scare people with it are assholes who are usually breaking the law. The vast majority of gun owners and concealed carry permit holders are not these people.

edited 15th Jun '16 1:33:55 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#126450: Jun 15th 2016 at 1:37:29 PM

Why is the opposite of concealed carry always assumed to be "waving the gun around"? Whatever happened to neat, lawful, respectful holsters? Possibly with that rubber leash thingy to prevent theft?

Open carry is illegal in a lot of places,

Why?

edited 15th Jun '16 1:39:07 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

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