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NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#126376: Jun 15th 2016 at 8:08:59 AM

High-threat response teams are extensively trained in target recognition. Friendly-fire casualties should be virtually nil under any conceivable single-shooter scenario, unless they literally have to shoot through a hostage to take down the gunman. I refuse to accept any other outcome without extensive justification.
They're also trained extensively on how to take out actively hostile targets without getting taken out themselves, but that didn't stop one of them from getting shot in the head. No matter how much training you've gotten, it doesn't make you superhuman. You can't magically stop bullets from overpenetrating or ricocheting in tight quarters. If you're firing your weapon with friendlies downrange, there's always a chance that you'll hit one of them, no matter how good a shot you are or how thorough your training is. But when your target is in the process of trying to kill you and everyone else around him, you have to take those shots, because shooting at him may harm innocents but not shooting at him will allow him to harm innocents.

Reality sucks sometimes, and there isn't always a perfect solution. Saying that you refuse to accept it doesn't make it any less true.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#126377: Jun 15th 2016 at 8:10:52 AM

How could we tell whether or not they were shot by police or the gunman? They're using the same ammunition and weaponry.

Oh really when?
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126378: Jun 15th 2016 at 8:11:08 AM

[up][up] Whenever a police officer shoots a civilian, there is an extensive, mandatory review process to determine if the shooting was avoidable. This isn't rocket science; we've been doing it for a long time. I just don't want friendly-fire casualties to be brushed off here.

edited 15th Jun '16 8:11:17 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#126379: Jun 15th 2016 at 8:12:17 AM

[up][up]You might be able to tell by the shapes of the bullets? I'm not sure if that'd work IRL, but it works in movies.

edited 15th Jun '16 8:12:22 AM by Protagonist506

Leviticus 19:34
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#126380: Jun 15th 2016 at 8:14:07 AM

You can with a detailed autopsy and by examining the bullet fragments left inside the body but the gunman had an AR-15 likely firing .223 or 5.56mm amunition and the police all had AR-15 derivatives firing .223 or 5.56mm ammunition.

They both had the same equipment. So how do we know it happened? The only source is the Daily Heil too, that's got me suspicious.

edited 15th Jun '16 8:15:07 AM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126381: Jun 15th 2016 at 8:15:40 AM

The gunman did not have an AR-15; he had a Sig Sauer MCX. One of the things that makes this weapon remarkable is that it's designed for concealability; an open question from the shooting is how he got it and a handgun into the club in the first place. Wearing a heavy coat in downtown Orlando in June should be a sign of insanity if not malice.

Even if all the weapons are the same model, ballistics analysis can tell which gun fired which bullet. Again, this is not rocket science; we've been doing this sort of forensic work for decades. Let's not invent problems to gnash our teeth over; there are enough real ones as it is.

edited 15th Jun '16 8:18:10 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#126382: Jun 15th 2016 at 8:18:15 AM

The MCX is an AR-15 derivative. Like I said a few pages ago everyone makes them.

Oh really when?
megarockman from The Sixth Borough (Experienced Trainee)
#126383: Jun 15th 2016 at 8:19:10 AM

Even taking the reputation of the source into consideration, I would at least hope the OPD and relevant law enforcement agencies up would perform such a review as a matter of course simply because shots were fired.

The damned queen and the relentless knight.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126384: Jun 15th 2016 at 8:19:24 AM

[up][up]It doesn't matter. Rifling on the gun barrels can be uniquely matched to the patterns of scoring on the bullets. It's literal textbook forensic work.

edited 15th Jun '16 8:19:55 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#126385: Jun 15th 2016 at 8:20:59 AM

Whenever a police officer shoots a civilian, there is an extensive, mandatory review process to determine if the shooting was avoidable. This isn't rocket science; we've been doing it for a long time. I just don't want friendly-fire casualties to be brushed off here.
Oh, of course. I'm not saying that an investigation shouldn't be done or that the officers in question shouldn't be punished if they're found to have made avoidable mistakes. That's why I said "unless it's shown that the police acted negligently". My point is that in a situation like this (as opposed to a "normal" police shooting), just because friendly fire happened doesn't necessarily mean it was a result of police negligence.

If there was any friendly fire at all. All we have is the OPD chief refusing to say with 100% certainty that it absolutely didn't happen. Instead he's waiting for the investigation to make that determination, as he should.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#126386: Jun 15th 2016 at 8:24:28 AM

The civilian MCX's folding stock may be shorter than the collapsing buffer tube stock on a regular AR, but that's it. The rest of the rifle is no more concealable than your average SBR or pistol AR-15.

Whether or not surveillance footage exists of the front door is certainly an open question - you would think that patting down for weapons of any sorts is mandatory, but then this is America...

edited 15th Jun '16 8:27:37 AM by Krieger22

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126387: Jun 15th 2016 at 8:32:07 AM

I wonder if it'll turn out that the bouncer(s) recognized him as a club regular and so didn't screen for weapons.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#126388: Jun 15th 2016 at 8:49:57 AM

I'm assuming that the door staff are all amongst the dead so we are unlikely to ever know.

As for a possible bullet form the police, did any hostages die during the recuse? My understand is that all hostages at the time of the breach were gotten out alive, which means the cops can't have killed anyone.

What's possible is that a stray bullet might have hit somebody during the chaos, the guy in charge is waiting to here back before he can be certain about that, but honestly even if someone was hit I doubt anyone is gonna complain, they got the hostages out alive, I'm calling that a win.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#126389: Jun 15th 2016 at 8:52:12 AM

[up][up] If so, the more paranoid side of me now wonders if he didn't become a regular for that exact reason.

edited 15th Jun '16 8:52:29 AM by sgamer82

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126390: Jun 15th 2016 at 8:55:41 AM

If so, he was casing the joint for years. No, all the indicators point to an Armored Closet Gay who became radicalized by ISIS propaganda and decided to carry out an attack on the objects of his self-hatred.

I've seen reports, however, that his wife is under investigation because she actually helped him case the club while he was planning his attack. That's some twisted love, right there.

edited 15th Jun '16 8:59:51 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
megarockman from The Sixth Borough (Experienced Trainee)
#126391: Jun 15th 2016 at 8:59:31 AM

[up]x3: The Washington Post's graphic (as in drawings and floorplans, not "Viewer Discretion Is Advised") and current description suggests door staff was bypassed (first targets were at the bar, after which an off-duty cop started to return fire) and unlikely to be among dead (though if someone has information otherwise feel free to overrule me).

The damned queen and the relentless knight.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#126392: Jun 15th 2016 at 9:10:27 AM

[up][up] I'm not sure if ISIS progoganda was ever responsible, remember this guy also pledged loyalty to Hamas, AQ and several other Islamist organisations, from the sound of it he literally just rattled off the names of every Islamist organisation he could remember, much the same way the stabber in London a while back just shouted whatever he could think of.

[up] To get to the bar he had to have entered via a door, the fact that he has currently only been I Ded after he got in doesn't mean he somehow bypassed the door.

[down]X3 One day my iPad will work alongside me instead of against me.

edited 15th Jun '16 9:18:16 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#126393: Jun 15th 2016 at 9:11:33 AM

The guy may have been radicalized by Islamist ideology but it doesn't sound like it was ISIS in particular.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126394: Jun 15th 2016 at 9:12:01 AM

[up] The FBI originally investigated him because he expressed jihadist sentiment to his co-workers; he was later found to be in contact with a U.S. citizen who traveled to Syria and carried out a suicide bombing. So even if it wasn't ISIS specifically, he did become radicalized into that mentality at some point.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#126395: Jun 15th 2016 at 9:12:46 AM

[up][up][up]I think you need to check your autocorrect settings.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
megarockman from The Sixth Borough (Experienced Trainee)
#126396: Jun 15th 2016 at 9:12:54 AM

I didn't mean he got in without getting checked out by door security first - I only meant he was already past it.

The damned queen and the relentless knight.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#126397: Jun 15th 2016 at 9:19:28 AM

Sure, and the question is how he got past is while armed, I don't know how Florida works but around here you get patted down before going into any club, just to make us you're not bringing in your own booze if nothing else.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126398: Jun 15th 2016 at 9:30:55 AM

Yeah. How, exactly, did he get an MCX through the entry check? The answer to that question will be revealing.

edited 15th Jun '16 9:31:28 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
megarockman from The Sixth Borough (Experienced Trainee)
#126399: Jun 15th 2016 at 9:32:37 AM

Guh, I should probably be more thorough. ABC News puts the shooting starting before he got inside (OPD officer returned fire) and apparently he got in anyway. Basically, there was no chance to check him for weapons.

edited 15th Jun '16 9:34:27 AM by megarockman

The damned queen and the relentless knight.
TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#126400: Jun 15th 2016 at 9:37:20 AM

Since US politics is insanity, why not vote for Cthulhu?

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele

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