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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#126276: Jun 14th 2016 at 7:07:00 PM

I'd like to believe that this theoretical leftist opposition to Democrats would be smart enough to avoid red. They're more likely to be Green.

edited 14th Jun '16 7:08:04 PM by Eschaton

ILoveDogs Since: May, 2010
#126277: Jun 14th 2016 at 7:07:33 PM

God, I hope not. The Green party's kinda nuts now, isn't it?

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#126279: Jun 14th 2016 at 7:08:59 PM

[up][up][up] Given that there's enough support for outright socialism (plus a general antipathy for capitalism) among millenials, (and this would definitely be something that would happen when the millenial generation is in power), I wouldn't rule out an openly socialist party being a viable opposition.

edited 14th Jun '16 7:09:11 PM by CaptainCapsase

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126280: Jun 14th 2016 at 7:10:27 PM

It's hard to imagine the Republican Party collapsing to the point of no longer being electorally viable. It's far too entrenched, with enough people conditioned to vote "R" no matter how odious the candidates on that side of the ballot are. It's got a media empire backing it and vast wealth propping up its candidates.

The Trump "revolution" is backing a straw candidate with a devastating lack of electability, and when he inevitably fails (barring some unimaginable catastrophe), the interests backing him will be disheartened and will probably cede control of the party, at least temporarily, to the establishment. It's far more likely that we'll get a Paul Ryan style candidate for 2020/2024 than another Trump or Carson. They'll be laughed out of the race.

I could be wrong but I don't think so. The real problem facing the country will be the continued obstructionism of Republicans in Congress, something we can't hope to reasonably fix until 2020 at the earliest, and which may result in any Democratic President, no matter how revolutionary, being shut out of any real legislative accomplishments.

[up] There is not nearly enough support for a "true socialist" party in the U.S. If the Greens can't win more than 1% of the national vote, your idea is a pipe dream. To be brutally honest, U.S. socialism is basically college kids who have big dreams, all the fiery outrage of the young, and little concept of true privation.

edited 14th Jun '16 7:14:06 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#126281: Jun 14th 2016 at 7:12:54 PM

[up] Not with the current electoral base no, but among millenials, socialism vs capitalism is about 32% vs 48%, and it's actually in favor of socialism (though the people who answer "neither" get even higher) when you're specifically looking at young (~18-23) millennials. The events of the past few decades have more or less been a perfect storm for fostering a strongly left-leaning generation; deeply unpopular right wing administrations, a military disaster on par with Vietnam, and the worst economic downturn since the great depression.

edited 14th Jun '16 7:15:57 PM by CaptainCapsase

Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#126282: Jun 14th 2016 at 7:13:10 PM

The Green party's kinda nuts now, isn't it?
Maybe? Right now they're trying capitalize on Sanders' platform and the dissatisfaction with the Democratic Party. Though I certainly wouldn't be surprised if there are some serious fringe elements still nestled somewhere in there.

Can't be much worse than the libertarians though.

[up]However, turning that into a viable party platform depends on the kind of "socialism" they want to implement.

edited 14th Jun '16 7:16:59 PM by Eschaton

ILoveDogs Since: May, 2010
#126283: Jun 14th 2016 at 7:13:45 PM

Well, how well will that Ryan-esque candidate (who will probably be Ryan himself) fare with Trump in his past?

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#126284: Jun 14th 2016 at 7:15:19 PM

The youth of the 1960's were all for socialism and shit, so I doubt this current generation will be any different.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126285: Jun 14th 2016 at 7:15:22 PM

[up][up][up][up] Young people who don't vote, and see my comment about starry-eyed college kids. Reality hits you hard once you graduate.

[up] [up] If he's smart, he'll take the opportunity to prove that the party isn't all insane racist demagogues. If the public's memory of Trump is strong enough, it might not work, but he's certainly welcome to try.

edited 14th Jun '16 7:16:21 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#126286: Jun 14th 2016 at 7:15:47 PM

If the GOP didn't collapse after 1932, it won't now.

The question is whether Citizens United and Dark Money won't prevent them from whipping themselves into shape like the Dems did with the DLC.

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#126287: Jun 14th 2016 at 7:16:26 PM

The Soviet Russians referred to themselves as "Reds" because in their culture, the color red means "beautiful" (in a similar sense to how "blue" means "sad" in our culture.)

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#126288: Jun 14th 2016 at 7:18:24 PM

@Adric/Fighteer: The "voters become more conservative" as they age assumption was something that was only really true for the baby boomers; it'll take a modern Ronald Reagan (and an extremely good economy under a right-wing administration) to make that happen with the millenials. Especially with the Soviet Union dead and gone, the Red Scare is more or less defunct.

[up][up] They had to reinvent themselves as a party to survive; Eisenhower era Republicans were about where the modern democrats are on economics, it wasn't until Goldwater that the GOP started down the path towards the utter shitshow they are today. For millenials, that's going to entail becoming much more libertarian, and dramatically improving on social issues.

edited 14th Jun '16 7:23:45 PM by CaptainCapsase

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#126289: Jun 14th 2016 at 7:20:19 PM

I already know the whole "people become more conservative as they get older" thing is bupkis, I'm just saying that socialism isn't really a big thing. The youth of today are all for it, but so were the youth of the 60's.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#126290: Jun 14th 2016 at 7:22:18 PM

[up] In a number of European nations socialist parties form the core of the opposition coalition, so it's not impossible in my eyes to have a similar arrangement arise in the United States.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#126291: Jun 14th 2016 at 7:23:01 PM

It may happen someday, I'm just saying that I doubt it'll happen today.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#126292: Jun 14th 2016 at 7:24:21 PM

[up] It would be something that comes to pass over a decade or two, so I'm not saying it's something that would happen today either.

FieldMarshalFry Field Marshal of Cracked from World Internet War 1 Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Field Marshal of Cracked
#126293: Jun 14th 2016 at 7:25:58 PM

never been able to wrap my head around why socialism is still viewed with such hostility... or why the Republicans use red, THE colour of the left, the song is called The Red Flag after all....

advancing the front into TV Tropes
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#126294: Jun 14th 2016 at 7:27:01 PM

[up] It's the legacy of one of the most successful and large scale propaganda campaigns in US history, namely the McCarthy era.

edited 14th Jun '16 7:27:16 PM by CaptainCapsase

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#126295: Jun 14th 2016 at 7:27:15 PM

I'm not hostile to it.

I'm saying that it'll take a long time for people to even think of accepting it, not to mention the kind of changes necessary for such a system that'll no doubt require a lot of money and a lot of taxes, and if there's one thing this country agrees on, it's that taxes suck.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#126296: Jun 14th 2016 at 7:27:46 PM

[up][up][up]The parties didn't decide on that. That started in like 2000 because those colors were picked by the a news channel that was counting which party won which state.

edited 14th Jun '16 7:28:15 PM by LSBK

desdendelle Hooded Crow from Land of Milk and Honey (Sergeant) Relationship Status: Hiding
Hooded Crow
#126297: Jun 14th 2016 at 7:31:13 PM

@Fry: AFAIK the places socialism (not social-democracy) was tried out didn't fare too well (for example the kibbutzim).

On empty crossroads, seek the eclipse -- for when Sol and Lua align, the lost shall find their way home.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#126298: Jun 14th 2016 at 7:33:34 PM

[up] Yes, but in places where socialists are the opposition and are actually willing to make compromises, a major welfare state + social corporatism, aka the Nordic model and its relatives tends to be the result.

edited 14th Jun '16 7:37:42 PM by CaptainCapsase

desdendelle Hooded Crow from Land of Milk and Honey (Sergeant) Relationship Status: Hiding
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#126300: Jun 14th 2016 at 7:39:03 PM

Socialism as in "tear down capitalism and live in communes with shared property" is a failed ideology. The kind most people think of is the social democracies of the Nordic states, which are not without their flaws but seem to handle the tradeoffs between capitalism and socialism with reasonable aplomb.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

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